The New York Times editorial board of… imbeciles

LOTS of Balkan idiots send comments there, and quite a few wise folks too.
  1. Slav Macedonian idiots don’t recognize the existence of Greek Macedonians, while…
  2. Greek Macedonian idiots don’t recognize the existence of Slav/other Macedonians .

Shamefully however, the New York Times have decided that ONLY ONE side in the dispute (between Greece and Slavic-Albanian Macedonia) is «shameful» (because President Bush says so). Well, if you’d like to comment (and you’ve been censored by the N.Y.T. imbeciles) feel free to send your comments here (or in other Greek blog posts about this idiocy, e.g. this one here, by «Animats»).

UPDATE: The «New York Times» have provably censored some civilised readers’ comments, including my own comment (which -however- was later approved by the moderators, after this post appeared), as follows:

Allright, allright, so you (the editorial board of NYT) disagree with the Greek decision. So what? Decisions like that take place all the time, in international relations. In this case, inexcusable ignorance of the true nature of the issue is the only thing worthy of being called shameful. If the issue was “shameful” then why is it that quite a lot of people and a lot of countries in Europe take it so very seriously? Personally, I believe Slavic Macedonians have as much a right to exist as Greek Macedonians. They can exist without convincing themselves that they are the direct descendants of ancient Macedonians, a Greek tribe according to most historians. Tragically, Greece is full of bigots, too. The evil DNA of the great destroyer of nations Alexander has not disappeared, most probably! 🙂 What has in fact disappeared is bigotry in attitudes towards neighboring nations. We are now ready to recognize them as equals, as ethnic (slavic) Macedonians, if you like. All we asked for was an adjective qualifier, as a minimal kind of recognition of the fact that there are Greek Macedonians as well, that they too have a right to feel as Macedonian as the Slavs. Is that shameful? Well, we can talk about it, and we intend to talk about it even more in coming months. The only shameful attitude, however, is yours; a respectable newspaper, moaning as if you are part of the dispute, as if you are ethnic slavic Macedonian yourselves, JUST because your president wants his policies to be _always_ implemented unquestionably.

Well, it’s time to eat some humble pie, Mr. Bush.

(end of comment)

UPDATE 2: Many Slavic Macedonian fanatics paraded in the New York Times (blog for imbeciles) claiming Alexander the Great was their ethnic ancestor. Well, their own late president Kiro Gligorov, back in 1992, admitted this myth to be a nationalist lie:

UPDATE 3: A Greek post in this blog ( had proposed -many weeks ago- a new official name for F.Y.R.O.M.:

  • Slavic Albanian Republic of Macedonia (SAROM) instead of FYROM

UPDATE 4: Here are some English-speaking blog-posts, apparently biased or misinformed:

  1. A rather interesting critique of Greece’ which I found amusing, while still disagreeing with it: Greece’s Foreign Minister: The US must change its name to ‘United States of Central North America’ (unfortunately with comments closed): As a joke, it’s nice, but it disregards many important facts about the Balkans; using a faulty humourous analogy (hint:WHEN did the USA claim itself to be «the one and only America»?).
  2. No End to Tribalism? The Dispute Around the Copyright on “Macedonia” – a serious critique of the Greek position, where I wrote a decent comment (awaiting moderation): A clone of my comment is now in the comments’ section of this post: April 5, 2008 at 11:24 am
  3. other blog-posts (to be updated -perhaps)

UPDATE 5 (17-5-2010):

This particular post was repeatedly flooded with spam, sent over here mostly from automatic spamming engines, during the last two years. This indicates some serious and quite intentional malice, since NO OTHER POST in this blog was attacked, as much as this one. As a matter of fact, The spam problem caused by this post is SO great, that today I decided to take some action: – ALL COMMENTS and PINGBACKS will be CLOSED, from now on, for THIS post! (Hopefully this will prevent the flooding of my spam-bin; We’ ll see…)
Reblog this post [with Zemanta]


  1. Φίλε Omadeon,
    ευχαριστώ γιά την ειδοποίηση. Το είδα το μεσημέρι και κόντεψε να…καεί ο υπολογιστής από τη φρίκη. 😉 Όχι πως περίμενα κάποια διαφορετική αντιμετώπιση, αλλά έτσι όπως το έχουν συντάξει φαίνεται σα να πρόκειται γιά άρθρο του Αντ.Μιλοσόσκι – γιά να μην πω το Γκλιγκόροφ. Απίστευτο ατόπημα γιά μιά εφημερίδα του μεγέθους των New York Times, πόσο μάλλον όταν πρόκειται γιά Editorial.

    Και τα περισσότερα σχόλια βεβαίως που έχουν δημοσιευθεί, και Σκοπιανών και Ελλήνων, στερούνται σοβαρότητας.

  2. Φίλε Ζορμπά,
    χαίρομαι που… μπήκες στο νόημα!
    Απλούστατα, πιστεύω ότι ΟΛΟΙ οι φανατικοί και οι γλυκανάλατοι είναι στα σχόλια αυτής της παλιοφυλλάδας ΚΑΛΟΔΕΧΟΥΜΕΝΟΙ, και πρώτη μούρη πίστα!

    Ενώ: σχόλια που στριμώχνουν ή λένε κάτι ουσιαστικό ΛΟΓΟΚΡΙΝΟΝΤΑΙ. Αλλο ένα τέτοιο κρούσμα ανέφερε σχολιαστής στο άλλο blog.

    Δυστυχώς στην Ελλάδα πολύς κόσμος κοιμάται ολόρθιος. Εγώ δεν έχω κανένα πρόβλημα με τους δύστυχους Σλαβομακεδόνες. Κυνηγημένοι ήσαν κάποτε, πολλοί από αυτούς, μια χαρά παιδιά που… δεν ξέρουν τι τους συμβαίνει. Κάποτε, πρέπει να τους τείνουμε χείρα φιλίας. Αλλά ΟΧΙ και να σκύβουμε το κεφάλι σε ξεπουλημένους δημοσιογράφους και αιμοσταγείς προέδρους!

  3. Υ.Γ. Ο Γκλιγκόρωφ ήταν ΑΓΙΟΣ μπροστά τους, έτοιμος να δεχτεί αυτό που τώρα αρνούνται στηριζόμενοι στις πλάτες του… ξοφλημένου Μπους.

    omadeon said this on April 5, 2008 at 10:48 am
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Hello, I often find myself among the minority of moderates in Greece, since I really believe that Slavic Macedonians have a right to exist AS MACEDONIANS, exactly like Greek Macedonians have a right to exist AS MACEDONIANS as well. I have spent long hours wasting my time on-line arguing against extreme views, which unfortunately are quite widespread in Greece. However, THIS time, I found it necessary to criticize the bias of others, outside Greece, such as the “New York Times” newspaper, who insult Greece and lash out in favour of Slavic Macedonian nationalism, denying the right of Greek Macedonians to ALSO exist. Here is my critique of a shamefully biased recent article of the N.Y.T.:

    Greece has changed considerably since the sad nineties, when it was not possible for Greek public opinion to accept “Macedonia” at all, as a part of our Northen neighbour-state’s official name.
    What we negotiate is a peaceful and reasonable solution, which will allow FYROM to be respectfully called something like “New Macedonia”, in order to distinguish it from Greek Macedonia. In this simple, decent request for compromise, with which even the people of FYROM agreed, many years ago (but we were the fanatics at that time), I see no reason for disagreement. Unless of course the new goals of the neo-nationalist Slavic Macedonians include serious threats to the well-being and stability of Greece, in the region. I am not saying FYROM is a military threat, just saying that it can create new problems for non-existent reasons, or play a negative role in the region’s stability, as regards Greece, in the future. For example, if you care to take a look into the new, rather extreme Nationalist Propaganda in Slavic Macedonian schools and popular culture, even music culture, you may be surprised with the FIERCENESS and FANATICISM that it contains, forging history in order to provide a new narration, a historical myth making today’s Slavic Macedonians proud of a (non-existent) Historic Heritage.

    Not only is this extreme nationalism a threat to Greece, it is also a serious threat to Albanian citizens of FYROM, about 35% of its population, who do NOT share a slavic nationalism (deluded to believe itself… more ancient than slavs themselves).

    Long algo, I had proposed a new name for FYROM which will be an accurate description of its ethnic components:
    This is SO easy to implement, just change two letters in FYROM and you get SAROM.

    Since the Greek decision in NATO gave us more time to negotiate, I think this proposal is worth thinking about!

    Thanks for the opportunity to express myself here (the New York Times have denied it).

  5. Απ’ ότι είδα δημοσίευσαν ένα σχόλιο σου στο μπλογκ του Editorial Board. Υποθέτω θα διάβασαν το ποστ εδώ και το μετάνιωσαν ;).

  6. Ευχαριστώ Ζορμπά! Μόλις το είδα, πράγματι τελικά το δημοσίευσαν.

    Χθες είχα σώσει όμως τη σελίδα και δεν υπήρχε. Προφανώς μπήκε σε αναμονή για κάποιους λόγους και αργότερα ελευθέρωσαν το σχόλιο, οπότε μπήκε και στη σωστή χρονική θέση. Πάντως καλό είναι να επαγρυπνούμε.

  7. Το μεγάλο πρόβλημα των Σκοπίων είναι ο εθνικισμός που εξέθρεψαν, ο οποίος τους εγκλωβίζει σε ακραίες λύσεις. Η αποδοχή του βέτο και η υποστήριξη των ελληνικών θέσεων από σημαντικά ευρωπαικά κράτη, ήταν μια ευχάριστη έκπληξη, που αποδεικνύει ότι μια μετριοπαθής και αιτιολογημένη πρόταση είναι σαφώς αποτελεσματικότερη από κάθε υστερική κραυγή. Ακολουθώντας τις έξαλλες προτροπές των «Ανθιμου και σια», η καταστροφή θα ήταν σίγουρη.

  8. Τον εθνικισμό των Σκοπίων εξέθρεψαν και κάποιοι δικοί μας «κύριοι», κυρίως του ΚΚΕ, όπως ο Νίκος Ζαχαριάδης και ο Μάρκος Βαφειάδης. Παραπέμπω στον «Ριζοσπάστη» Μακεδονίας-Θράκης 24-25/11/1932 για περισσότερα και πιο εμετικά.

  9. @elias
    Συμφωνώ απόλυτα.
    Να και μία ένδειξη ότι έτσι είναι τα πράγματα:,id=20824688
    (η σημερινή είδηση για τους εξτρεμιστές των Σκοπίων που… ΛΥΣΣΑΞΑΝ, στέλνοντας απειλές βίας σε μετριοπαθείς προσωπικότητες της χώρας τους)

    Επίσης κάτι κωμικό στο άρθρο αυτό, είναι η φωτογραφία του Σλαβομακεδόνα Ακροδεξιού με το ΙΔΙΟ σύμβολο (κύκλος με σταυρό στη μέση) που έχει _και_ η δική μας… ΧΡΥΣΗ ΑΥΓΗ!, τη στιγμή που καίει (κακότεχνο) αντίγραφο Ελληνικής σημαίας. Ιδού η φωτό, χωρίς το άρθρο:

    Δεν ταυτίζομαι με ΟΛΑ όσα λέει κατά καιρούς η «Ε» αλλά… σήμερα έχει ένα από τα καλύτερα άρθρα την απάντηση στο (επίσης αξιόλογο) αρκετά μετριοπαθές ανοιχτό γράμμα ενός επώνυμου Σλαβομακεδόνα (ο οποίος όμως ξεχνάει ότι η χώρα του ΔΕΝ υποχώρησε σε τίποτα).

    Πιθανολογώ ότι αυξάνει ο αριθμός των μετριοπαθών δυσαρεστημένων (με τις ακρότητες της ηγεσίας) πολιτών της FYROM, με τους οποίους επιβάλλεται (νομίζω) τώρα φιλική συνεννόηση και ενίσχυση.
    Ε… ΟΧΙ και να υποχωρούμε στη Χρυσή Αυγή των Σκοπίων επειδή πήρε το πάνω χέρι τελευταία.
    Φανταστείτε ΠΩΣ θα νιώθαμε εμείς οι προοδευτικοί Ελληνες αν κάποιοι ξένοι έσκυβαν το κεφάλι στις απαιτήσεις της _δικής_ μας Ακροδεξιάς!
    Τα Σκόπια είναι αυτή τη στιγμή μια… καρικατούρα της Ελλάδας αν επικρατούσε ο… Ανθιμος και ο Καρατζαφέρης (από την ανάποδη).

  10. @Αιρετικέ
    Λαμβάνω πολύ σοβαρά υπ’ όψη τις έρευνές σας για το αμαρτωλό παρελθόν πολλών, του ΚΚΕ συμπεριλαμβανομένου (κι ας θεωρεί τον εαυτό του πάντα «υπεράνω κριτικής»). Ευτυχώς ποτέ μου δεν μπήκα σε πολιτικό κόμμα (πλην μιας «στραβής» πρόσφατης απόπειρας να γίνω Ο-Π) κι έτσι δεν έχω κανένα πρόβλημα να δω χωρίς προκαταλήψεις όλες τις πτυχές του θέματος. Πάντως οξύτατη κριτική της στάσης του ΚΚΕ είχε κάνει και ο Καστοριάδης, που μάλιστα αποτελούσε ελάχιστη μειοψηφία εκείνη την εποχή. Τελικά δεν τον χώρεσε ΟΥΤΕ ο Τροτσκισμός, και ο Ορθός Λόγος τον οδήγησε αργότερα σε συμπεράσματα που καταφέρνουν ΣΥΝΔΥΑΣΜΟ των Αρχαίων Ελληνικών ιδανικών με έναν υγιή διεθνισμό και έναν υγιή πατριωτισμό. Τον επανανακάλυψα πρόσφατα και… βρήκα την υγειά μου (ως αέναος μαθητής)!

  11. Y.Γ. κάτι ακόμη (και… φεύγω για κάποιες ώρες).

    Το Ακροδεξιό σύμβολο του κύκλου με το σταυρό στη μέση, διεθνές σύμβολο μάλιστα που χρησιμοποιεί και η δική μας Χρυσή Αυγή, ΔΕΝ φαίνεται καλά στη φωτογραφία του on-line άρθρου της «Ε» που έδωσα, αλλά φαίνεται πολύ καθαρά στην τυπωμένη έκδοση. Το βράδυ θα σκανάρω τη φωτογραφία και θα σας την δείξω σε μεγέθυνση, για να δείτε το σύμβολο.

    UPDATE: (πολύν καιρό μετά το συμβάν) Το σύμβολο σε μεγέθυνση ήταν -τελικά- ένα αναρχικό «Α». Περίεργος όμως αυτός ο «αναρχισμός». Αν αδιαφορούσε ΠΡΑΓΜΑΤΙΚΑ για εθνικισμούς της γείτονος χώρας, δεν θα έπρεπε να τον πειράζει ένα σύνθετο όνομα, που θα επιτύχει πραγματική ηρεμία στην περιοχή (και σιωπή στους Ελληνες εθνικιστές). Επομένως, τέτοιος αντι-εθνικισμός είναι ΚΑΠΕΛΛΩΜΕΝΟΣ από τον εθνικισμό της FYROM.

  12. All you nationalistic and fashistic greek pigs should go see Psychiatric clinic and take some strong medications. Macedonia to the Macedonians. FOREVER!

  13. Don’t worry, there is still hope for your mass hysterical lunatism. You greek shovinists believe that the world belongs to you but hey, that’s what Hitler thought too, didn’t he? And look how he ended up. We, the Macedonians, know that the justice is slow sometimes but that’s OK, we have plenty of time. Until then, enjoy in your misery.


  14. Look man, you’re just fucking around with your own mind’s projections.
    I am NOT a nationalist. You are reading the wrong blog.

    I don’t give a shit -personally- what you or what anyone else call themselves.
    Take your name or your history, lubricate well,and put in your ass.
    I simply don’t give a fuck. I don’t believe in separate nations.

    I just believe that if there are _still_ separate nations, we’ve got to find solutions for lasting peace, between these separate nations. And if you don’t find a solution that is satisfactory for two neighbouring nations, it’s your problem.

    «Slavic Albanian Republic of Macedonia» is my offer.

  15. P.S. It’s me (Omadeon) but writing from a friend’s PC. I am leaving now and in less than half an hour I will be home.

  16. Hi, I am John (a friend of Omadeon).
    Omadeon is a patriot but not a nationalist. He will answer you in detail when he returns to his base. Personally I have little to say.

    You are just like those Greeks you hate. Exactly the same.

  17. It’s all right John (I managed to log in NOW from John’s PC).

    Actually there is nothing to add, even when I get home.

  18. Sorry if I am posting on a wrong blog, I am not nationalist either.

  19. Sorry if I am posting on a wrong blog, I am not nationalist either.

    That’s a good starting point for sincere communication.

    Have a nice day, and… Sorry for a few bad words, too!

    Look, Macedonian (Slav) Friend, we’ ve got to find a solution to the problem between our two countries. Personally, I really have NO problem about how your country calls itself. However, since there are millions of others who «feel offended», what we must discuss is something that will make them quiet, something that will NOT deny your right to exist, your dignity, and your right to be ALSO Macedonian. This is why I proposed a name like «Slavoalbanian Republic of Macedonia».

    Many Greeks in the past have denied the right of Macedonian Slavs to exist. This was a big mistake and they paid for it. They must REALLY understand, now, that your people have been in this Balkan region for so many hundreds of years, that it’s natural for you to feel Macedonian. However, now is the time for you people, the Macedonian Slavs, to understand exactly the same about Greek Macedonians, who ALSO have a right to exist, to be called Macedonian just like yourselves.

    As I said, personally I have no problem about how you call yourselves. The problem is that MOST Greeks and MOST Macedonian Slavs DO HAVE a problem. Otherwise, if you didn’t also have a strong nationalist problem, then WHY should YOU insist,about your own name being «Republic of Macedonia», instead of e.g. «SlavoMacedonia» (proposed by Gligorov) or «North Macedonia» or «Slavoalbanian Macedonia»?, etc. It makes no difference!

    The problem is how to live peacefully. This is all!
    Suppose you are right. SO WHAT? If «being right» is more important to you than Peace itself, then you are acting like a nationalist; you are acting just like those stupid Greeks who shouted «Macedonia is (ONLY) Greek».

    Give the nationalist assholes a respectable adjective, that’s all they want. Give those dogs a bone, for the sake of peace! Come on!

  20. The part that Greece calls Macedonia now used to be called North Greece 30 years ago. You guys have gone too far with this silliness. I am not talking about the big Alex my brother, neither me nor you have anything to do with it. 2000 years is too long period of time for someone to claim connection with someone. If you like the name Macedonia so badly you should have changed your name from Greece to Macedonia. But see, most of the people in your country don’t understand that you will not settle for any other solution but a complete denial of the Macedonian identity. No Macedonian nation, no Macedonian language and no Macedonia is what the Greeks are after. If they were really after a “geographical distinction between the Republic of Macedonia and their region” they would’ve settled for the last Nimetz’s proposal. Negotiations with the Greeks are just a waste of time, resources and nerves for the Macedonians. How difficult it may be, the Macedonians must find another way to establish their place in the World community. My country is being recognized by 120 countries in the world. We were ready to accept the name Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) but you guys want to wipe us from the map of existence. Anyway, I do have friends among your people, I respect your history, I love your country no matter how badly your politicians treat me and my people. But it has gone too far my friend and I think it’s not gonna calm down that easy. Plus, we are from same religion, orthodox Christians, which fact is rarely mentioned any where.
    God Bless!

  21. Well, you sound quite reasonable actually, now. If you and I were the… negotiators, it now sounds like we could have reached an agreement very quickly, instead of so many years! 🙂

    There are only minor clarifications I’d like to make.

    Firstly, nobody wants to wipe out your country from the map; at least nobody except psychopaths and extremists.

    Secondly, you sound very reasonable about the history 2000 years ago (and Big Alex); so this is not a problem!

    Thirdly, you understandably feel fed up with previous negotiations and the extremely one-sided Greek attitudes of the past. I agree, but times have changed: On the surface, it seems as if Greece is cornering your country, but in reality, Greece is now proposing a much more reasonable compromise than ever before.

    The problem we have is different today: We have 95% of the population supporting the veto, because they suddenly realised that Greece is in danger of losing completely the right to use the term «Macedonia», and so on.

    There is no doubt, that the issue is open, and that perhaps your country can achieve recognition under its constitutional name. However, this might mean long-term hostile feelings from Greeks to Macedonian Slavs, which can be avoided!

    Personally, I would have agreed to the name «Macedonia-Skopje». I don’t really know who and when objected to this name, and some details elude me, but if you ALREADY agreed to this name than I congratulate you!

    Actually, just like you entered this blog with a preconceived idea of what I believe and what I am, in exactly the same way Greeks are acting on the basis of preconceived ideas about you people, not really knowing you; not knowing enough about your problems, etc.

    In my opinion, most citizens of Greece and your country are either partly misinformed or else doing the wrong mental projections. I really hope that the future negotiations will have a positive outcome, just like this discussion seems to have (although it started a bit… abruptly)! 🙂

    I am very fond of Slavs and once I was married to a Polish woman. The idea of a compromise in the name-issue was in mind since ages ago!

    You are welcome to express yourself here without hurry and without censorship!

  22. No, you don’t want to wipe out the country as a country, but our identity, this is what I meant. We did not agree to the name Republic of Macedonia (Skopje), we were ready to make the compromise accepting it just to end up this madness but like I said before, you guys are after our identity, not the name. Now, 95% of our people is not ready to negotiate at all, about anything, and the chance for accepting anything but Republic of Macedonia is gone just because of the ignorance of your politicians. We have allies, don’t think that it’s gonna be easy for your country to be the winner, and no one can force nobody to do something against its will. Those times are long time gone.
    The frustration and desperation in Macedonia have gone to the point were there is no way going back. With vetoing our NATO entrance Greece crossed the red line. No one in Macedonia cares about NATO anymore, we worry about our existence, and you probably understand the reaction of a wounded wild animal being afraid for its life. This is how we feel now.
    I live in the US but you can probably feel my frustrations even though I am far away from my own people. Actually the Greek irrationalism has awoken the nationalistic demons inside of many Macedonians and that’s bad, very bad. I am for peace, I am not nationalistic, I am reasonable man although frustrated man at this point… I believe in better tomorrow but also I am aware of my existence as a Macedonian. I don’t know of any other name to call my self. My first 2 posts on this blog was my other me, not the real one… I deeply sorry about the harsh words I wrote.
    Thank you for the good discussion.

  23. Omadeon, I suppose you should remind our friend who writes under the «Republic of Macedonia» moniker of the actions of our own communist party, which invented the «Macedonian ethnic minority» and propagandized it all through the ’30s, ’40s and even up to the end of our Civil War, because it wanted to disrupt the unity of the people in Northern Greece, in hopes that the Yugoslav forces and the «National Liberation Front» would help them.

    Furthermore, I would personally like to inform our friend that, as long as their public education system propagandizes the removal of almost the entire Northern Greece (our geographical part of Macedonia), as long as their monuments show such insulting maps, as long as their constitution includes notions about them taking the initiative to change the borders, we are going to keep vetoing their entrance to both NATO and the European Union.

    Oh, and something else: I know for a fact that the Slavomacedonian people hoped that the USA would blackmail/bully us into submission. Obviously, that did not happen. So, perhaps they should finally understand that they have EVERY reason to stop their propaganda, abolish their cocky attitude and come to terms with Greece and ZERO reason to depend on the USA, because the USA will betray them at the drop of a hat when its interests change. You see, the USA are the least reliable ally in the entire history of the human race. In fact, they seem to care about their allies as much as Cthulhu cares about humans: not at all.

  24. Hi Heretic! Just came home after a day of work and a night out…

    Well, some good points you made are valuable for our discussion; it doesn’t matter so much to agree on EVERYTHING, it matters VERY much to agree on a positive basis, a minimal basis at first, which can gradually grow to a better mutual understanding, as well as a clarification of MIS-understandings; and also some inaccuracies we tend to forget.

    Since our «guest» in this discussion is our Slav Macedonian friend, I think we have an obligation to be courteous and try to see his own point of view, in the light of our knowledge, rather than attack his knowledge from our point of view (I say this to myself, mostly; since there are some difficult issues you raised).
    It is a very difficult issue, for example, to discuss the topic of «identity» or «national identity», AS SUCH. This is a very fluid, fundamentally subjective issue. So I will discuss it in the end.

    So, as regards your other points, Heretic: – The end of your comment is correct. However, I feel that Macedonians of Slavic ethnicity should read your words mostly as a WARNING: There is nothing to stop stronger guys from changing sides when e.g. they find their own interests are best served by someone else. Tomorrow, America may decide to start supporting the Albanians in Skopje! In this case, the ONLY friend of Slavic Macedonia will be… Greece! We already sent military assistance, some time ago, when there was unrest. I don’t necessarily support that action, but I mention it as an example…

    Now, as regards the extreme propaganda (that our Slavic Macedonian friend has ALSO denounced – let’s not forget this!) in schools and so on, OF COURSE it must change. But it can only be changed by the people of Slavo-albanian Macedonia themselves. And they can only begin to change it, if we (the moderate and reasonable Greeks) can prove that is harmful for BOTH our peoples: It also very harmful for the interests of our neighbours, not only for ourselves.
    WHO will benefit from a possible war between Greece and Slavic Macedonians? Only the extreme right-wing in Greece – perhaps! Or: Only _the worst_ within both nations! So, it is not only our own self-interest, but also the self-interest of our friends, that the Expansionist Propaganda against Greece must STOP; it must be ridiculed, IN THE SAME WAY as I also ridiculed someone… innocent: Alexander. (In the interests of peace I wrote a vulgar surrealistic joke-post against him! Of course, it is not to be taken seriously).

    I mean we… do have SOME nut-cases in Greece who dream about e.g. invading Turkey and re-capturing Istanbul or Constantinople, but we have learned, year by year, NOT to take them seriously. The people in F.Y.R.O.M .are citizens of a very young country, they must learn how to deal with such extremism much more quickly, but it is necessary.

    And now I end my babble with a discussion of Macedonian identity:

    We all know that Macedonia had a rather mixed kind of population, before the Balkan wars and before Greece took power in Northern Greece. I will not go into the details (which you can easily find in many web-sites) but only into the basic facts: A large amount of people in today’s Greek areas, were actually Slavs who were very close to Bulgarians, culturally, ethnically and genetically. I have read a lot about Slavic Macedonian identity. I am convinced that it was a real and valid Balkan identity, not something «manufactured».
    Of course, we all know that if Bulgaria had won those wars, ALL these people would today be Bulgarians, while millions of others (non-Slavic people) would have to move South or elsewhere. The wars of that time were VERY bloody (with lots of innocent victims). NOBODY SHOULD BE PROUD FOR THESE WARS.

    However, so many millions of people moved, either willingly or by force, from one country to the other, that gradually the slavic part of the population in today’s Greek areas shrunk more and more.
    UPDATE: Not many people know another fact: MANY Greek-speaking people, I don’t remember how many but certainly more than a million, had to EMIGRATE from the North (today’s Bulgaria, as well as today’s F.Y.R.OM.) to the South (today’s Greek Macedonia). This exchange of populations was typical of those times!

    The Greek civil war resulted in even further shrinking of the Slavic community; many Slavs from the Greek areas fled to today’s FYROM. We all know this. We also know that Greece has an obligation today to treat the very few remaining Slavs in our own soil with respect, with full human rights.

    The absurdity of claims to… recapture Greek Macedonia, is today as insane as e.g. the idea of Greeks recapturing parts of today’s Bulgaria: Completely impossible, unless the Extreme Right did it, as an imperialist war.

    Nobody denies the fact that MANY Greeks lived a few decades ago in Turkey, but nobody with a sane mind in Greece wants to… invade Turkey to get these areas «back». There is NOTHING to «take back». Even when millions of Greeks lived in Turkey, it was still Turkish (or Ottoman territory). Today, when only a few thousand Greeks are Turkish citizens, the idea of invading Turkey to… support them is only suitable for psychiatric treatment, NOT serious politics! 🙂

    However, our Macedonian Slav friend is right on many issues, and since he is our guest, we must pay more attention to THESE issues. For example, the fact that many Greek Macedonians hate his IDENTITY. As far as I am concerned, the area of today’s F.Y.R.O.M. is ALSO MACEDONIA; the people of FYROM, also ALSO MACEDONIANS, just like the Greeks of a large part of Northern Greece are ALSO MACEDONIANS and that part is ALSO MACEDONIA.

    I do not believe in ANY «one and only Macedonia».
    Just like… I do not believe in ANY «one and only God». 🙂

    I.e. the Greek Macedonia and the Slavic-Albanian Macedonia!

  25. It is hypocritical from the part of Greek nationalists (even those that deny this qualification for themselves -that is, practically all) to deny that they want to wipe out Macedonia (Macedonian language and national identity).

    In order to realize that they indeed do want to wipe it out, or rather not only want itbut act already as if it is does not exist at all, one only has to take a look at the Greek media any time. For example, today’s Eleftherotypia is infuriated and scandalised simply because the US deputy secretary of State spoke about macedonian nationality and macedonian language!,id=19184176

    The newspaper qualifies this statement as «an open provocation against Greece»!

    It also quotes statements by officials from the government as well as the opposition, including the Communist Party, who share this nationalist indignation.

    The same climate dominates all over the Greek press.

    So, it seems that in Greece there are unusually many psychopaths and extremists, who feel «provoked» by the mere statement that a specific nationality and language simply exist.

  26. @heretic as well
    Exactly, my… heretic friend!
    It is also these extremists who are our own… worst enemy. Without them, we would have agreed with Gligorov’s idea of «Slavomacedonia», many years ago, and many years later (today) Greece and Slavomacedonia would have become very good friends in the Balkans.

    Besides, HOW and WHY should Macedonian Slavs threaten Greece today?
    The minority rights political party of Slav citizens of Northern Greece only got 2 or 3 thousand votes, I think. (Even if they are many more, they are STILL not a serious «threat» at all).

    I am thinking of writing a friendly critique of their Florina site, with some minor points that everyone seems to forget. And I have strong hope that they are open-minded enough to answer my critique, when they see that it is moderate, friendly and creative!

    Our Slavic-speaking Greek citizens should have become Ambassadors of our Greek ideal of Freedom and Democracy, all over the Balkans since ages ago. Unfortunately, they’ve been used as targets of extremism, instead!

    Ancient Greek culture, with Direct Democracy, tolerance of everyone (especially foreigners and other cultures) should become a political …hobby for the Balkans in the 21st Century. We now have computers, we can even IMPLEMENT Direct Democracy, even today, if our cultural level was advanced enough. Evidently, our worst problem is within our own mind: It’s how people THINK which causes most problems today!

  27. To the imposter using a lousy misinterpretation of my online moniker: You obviously need a good reality check; it was the mid-thirties when the Communist Parties in the Soviet Union, Bulgaria and Greece INVENTED the «macedonian nation». So, something that was INVENTED in the name of political propaganda is NOT a good basis to begin with. For all I know (and care), if the Communists wanted to gain part of Albania at that time, they would have called you «Albanians» or «Illyrians» (to make it sound a bit more connected with ancient History). And if your country was adjacent to Switzerland, they would have named you «Swiss». So, you were GIVEN a name by OTHERS, who wanted to USE you as a tool. And now you keep on spewing this garbage? Come ON! Stop degrading yourselves! The church here keeps babbling about «romiosyni» («romanity» in English), but we’re not buying its bullcrap and have begun to break free from the bonds of the religious nuts.

    Furthermore, what «macedonian» language? It’s merely a dialect of the BULGARIAN language, with a few changes in the alphabet and some borrowed words from Serbian.

    Hardly unique… You know, it’s as unique as a barried-up (or «pimped-up») Lada with huge skirts, ultra-low-profile tires, suspension lowered so much that the floorpan now scrapes used condoms off the street, a lurid eyesore of a paintjob and five exhausts of such diameter that stray cats can find shelter from the winter cold in them. You can call it whatever you like, but it’s still a Lada. So, call your little dialect whatever you like, but it’s still Bulgarian.

    Oh, and do learn to write in English.

    Now, as for hating someone’s identity… My friend OMADEON, these people do exist in our country, just as they exist in every country. «There’s one in every family», you know? We do have some rabid lunatics; so does FYROM (although it seems that these loons are the ones governing it), so do the USA (OK, you’ll see many more morons of this kind there; in fact, according to an American friend of mine, «if you wipe out the USA, the global average IQ will go up by 50%»), so does France, so does every place in the whole world. Why bother? And why should WE feel any more guilt about them than any other country?

  28. Well, heretic (original -hehe)
    I was going to add, actually, that the logic of «heretic as well» can be also applied to the overwhelming majority of FYROM’s citizens today who have been brainwashed to think of themselves as the «ONLY true Macedonians».

    As regards however, the «construction» of (slavic) Macedonian identity, certainly the Communist party of Greece played a part in it. However, since you are extremely intelligent and systematic in your sources, you should consider the facts that a (slavic) Macedonian sense of identity has existed in Northern Greece and other regions for many, many years BEFORE the thirties and the fourties.

    E.g. reading another discussion about this topic, here are some links:
    (since you are Greek, THIS comment is really worth your attention, as regards the origin of «Macedonian» identity)
    (use Google translation on this if the French bothers you; it partly confirms your point on the Bulgarian essence of Slav-Macedonian identity)
    (some interesting points of Nakratzas, I don’t agree with everything, but on the whole I think THIS point of view is worth serious thought)

    Most Greek people probably get negative feelings reading the 3rd link I gave. However, most of the facts mentioned there are correct. E.g. the proportion of genuinely Greek ethnic Macedonians before the Balkan wars in the region was very small. Perhaps not 10% but still quite small. It is AFTER these wars and other events that today’s Greek Macedonia became more than 90% of Greek ethnic identity).

    These facts should NOT trouble us, however. Today’s FYROM is a very small, fragile country, very much in danger of instability, conflict with Albanians, and absolutely no power to harm Greek borders or Greek interests in any way.

  29. Regarding the 3rd link (, OK, now what should we do? There were «exchanges» of populations among all the countries in the Balkan region. Maybe we should go demanding that Albania (which has now raised the issue of «Chameria») hand over its south part? Or perhaps we should demand the return of Asia Minor from Turkey? How about an attempt to revive the «centuries of glory» of the dark and tyrannic Byzantine empire with a blitzkrieg that should win us back the entire Bulgaria, FYROM, Kosovo, Serbia, Albania, western Turkey AND part of Romania?

    No one in his/her right mind in Greece seriously considers these thoughts, because they are just plain stupid.

    Personally, I prefer them to stay put. Let the Slavomacedonians (for want of a better term; after all, 10% of Macedonian turf IS part of their country and, well, they ARE Slavs – although I’m sure the Albanian element in this country will disagree with this name) keep its region, BUT demolish all monuments that show expansionist ambitions (they are demonstrations of hostility AND stupidity) and remove any expansionist articles from their constitution.

    Oh, and get back down to Earth and perform a reality check: you are NOT the «only» and «true» Macedonians. The ancient Macedonians spoke Greek (Aeolian with some Dorian elements), claimed to be Greek, worshipped GREEK deities and everything about them was, well, Greek. You may be living in this area, but you are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians, because of your language and culture. Accept your slavic language, accept your slavic culture and don’t try to swipe anyone else’s history and heritage. Create your own. That’s the only DECENT thing to do.

    Of course, now that Greece has put up a veto, there’s no turning back. Now that we’ve vetoed NATO’s inclusion of FYROM, we can’t budge and say «sure, come in, we don’t mind that your name, your constitution and various actions of your politicians are hostile to us». We can’t and we don’t want to. Regardless of what mr. Fried or mrs. Rice or whoever says, we have our own interests to protect: the removal of any ambitions that are hostile to our country. I mean, seriously, if things were reversed, FYROM would do exactly the same as our side did. Why all the surprise and the commotion?

    The veto was also a very POSITIVE message to FYROM: it’s a clear message that says «remove the die-hard nationalists and extremists from power, as well as all those hard-headed idiots that make a mockery out of every negotiation». That’s a major step a country can take on its path to greatness. I know the extremists are the ones the USA work with, but, trust me: they don’t give a shit. The USA don’t give a shit, they don’t give a flying fuck about FYROM, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, whatever. They’ve proven that they don’t give a shit countless times. So, don’t count on them. Just count on your own powers and the fact that Greece:

    1. Doesn’t want to take your lands or your people (although its businessmen do want to hire your people to work in their companies)
    2. Doesn’t even want to THINK about the possibility of yet ANOTHER war in the Balkans.
    3. Has people that are, for the most part, cool with all their neighbors, as long as no hostile crap is spewed from either side.

  30. However, 90% of the «historic» Macedonia (the ancient Macedonia, that is) is now Greek territory and the rest now belongs to FYROM. Quite obviously, we are satisfied with the amount of land we already have. If we want more, we’ll just start a movement to make the state force the clergy give everything it’s stolen back to the people. Besides, even the land we already have has practically gone wasted, as we’ve trashed it way too much.

    Oh, and another thing: another reason why the US have the hots for FYROM at the moment is Camp Bondsteel.

  31. @heretic
    Hi, I just took a look at what’s happening in my blog, while visiting a friend. After quickly reading what you wrote, what amazes me is the fact, that underneath all the turmoil, we ALL agree on certain basic facts. For instance, I agree with around 95% of what you said, and the 5% is only a disagreement about style, mostly:
    My objection is that a better style is friendlier and also much more effective, to solve problems. So I would not call any region of the Balkans «turf», for instance! 🙂 But this is a VERY MINOR issue!

    However, if we can agree about the basic facts, we can agree about the solutions, as well. Clearly the best solution is tolerance of every community for every other, respect for borders, opposition to all aggressive expansionist propaganda. And the Greek insistence on a better name for Slavic Macedonia can NOT be called extremist!It is just a simple safeguard for preventing worse problems in the area.

    So, Heretic, I agree 100% with the following, for example:

    Regarding the 3rd link (, OK, now what should we do? There were “exchanges” of populations among all the countries in the Balkan region. Maybe we should go demanding that Albania (which has now raised the issue of “Chameria”) hand over its south part? Or perhaps we should demand the return of Asia Minor from Turkey? How about an attempt to revive the “centuries of glory” of the dark and tyrannic Byzantine empire with a blitzkrieg that should win us back the entire Bulgaria, FYROM, Kosovo, Serbia, Albania, western Turkey AND part of Romania?

    No one in his/her right mind in Greece seriously considers these thoughts, because they are just plain stupid.

    Our agreement here is VERY important. Please bear in mind, dear readers, that the Heretic and I agreed with basic historical facts quoted from a guy who is known to be a rather extreme advocate of human rights, and slavic Macedonian rights in particular: Dr. Nakratzas, a pneumologist who lives in Holland and cooperates actively with the Slavic Macedonians still living in Greece. So, if we can agree withi Nakratzas, we can CERTAINLY find common ground for agreement with ALL the moderate people of FYROM, those people who have just began to realize the problem of extremism in their own country. I would certainly NOT like Greece to be dominated by the extreme Right’s nationalist deliriums. WHY SHOULD SLAVIC MACEDONIA be dominated by similarly extreme ideas? Why should I agree with the Slavic Extreme Right, if I disagree with the Greek Extreme Right?
    Just because the Slavic Macedonian Extreme Right is… fashionable?

  32. P.S.
    And I repeat these… HERETIC IDEAS, with my friendliest feelings:

    The veto was also a very POSITIVE message to FYROM: it’s a clear message that says “remove the die-hard nationalists and extremists from power, as well as all those hard-headed idiots that make a mockery out of every negotiation”. That’s a major step a country can take on its path to greatness. I know the extremists are the ones the USA work with, but, trust me: they don’t give a shit. The USA don’t give a shit, they don’t give a flying fuck about FYROM, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, whatever. They’ve proven that they don’t give a shit countless times. So, don’t count on them. Just count on your own powers and the fact that Greece:

    1. Doesn’t want to take your lands or your people (although its businessmen do want to hire your people to work in their companies)
    2. Doesn’t even want to THINK about the possibility of yet ANOTHER war in the Balkans.
    3. Has people that are, for the most part, cool with all their neighbors, as long as no hostile crap is spewed from either side.

    It’s a pity I can’t also… LITERALLY SIGN this with a pen! 🙂

  33. Regarding the «war» part, dear omadeon, although we are capable of actually holding our own in combat (given the right orders, of course), we must make it perfectly clear that we do NOT want wars. We objected the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the ensuing civil war (which was bolstered by the USA and its allies, for crying out loud) and whatever killing occured.

    Of course, for religious reasons, the majority here sided with the Serbs, but NOT ignoring the plight of the Bosnians and the Croatians. Even though certain journalists attempted to portray Milosevic as some sort of a saint, we all knew he was a bastard and a half who did what he did simply to stay in power.

    As for why the veto IS a positive message to FYROM, it’s clear, although perhaps it could do with a little bit more clarifying:

    The veto showed plainly that insisting on bigotry and expansionist propaganda doesn’t work. Hence, another way must be tried. Don’t be fooled by whatever Bush and Co. might tell you. They DON’T care. They don’t give a rat’s ass about you, us, anyone. Hell, they don’t even care for their own country, as what happened in New Orleans with the Katrina hurricane demonstrated. So, why bother with them? Besides, you guys are part of Europe. It’s your European neighbors that you should form friendships and alliances with, not a bunch of religious nuts who put the entire world on fire just to sell more weapons and give higher profits to their oil companies (and also had the nerve to call this gang warfare rampage they went on «war against terror» – yeah, right).

    Oh, and Turkey is exactly the same as the US: a VERY unreliable ally that doesn’t care about its «friends» at all.

  34. Very reasonable… heretic views!

    Another thing we must not forget, is the (sometimes VERY close) kinship relations that existed, between Slavic and Greek orthodox inhabitants of Macedonia (both in Greek Macedonia as well as in Bulgaria and in today’s FYROM). Marriages between Slavic-speaking and Greek-speaking Macedonians were not uncommon, given the fact that they were both Orthodox Christian; both of them indistinguishable, from the point of view of Ottoman authorities!

    Greek Macedonians, sometimes discovered that older members of their own family were the ancestors of their opponents on the other side of the border. (Some cases like this also took place on the Internet, during the flame wars of the ’90s – where I took part, suggesting that we should compromise ,agreeing on a composite name).

    A one-sided view of these forms of kinship can of course argue that it was just a result of pressure from Greece towards Macedonians to give up their Slavic identity and become «Greekified». However, this cannot account for earlier times, or for the fact that Greeks also lived e.g. in Monastirion, today’s Vidola (I think); later on, these genuinely GREEK Macedonians (or most of them) moved to the South, to live in Greek territory. Meanwhile, members of their family e.g. who had married Slavs stayed behind and those who stayed in Slavic areas had their names changed to Slavic names.

    An old friend of mine, is a genuine Greek Macedonian whose father was a school-teacher in Florina, with a grandfather of Slavic origin. The grandfather’s name was «Gouzeloff»; he changed his name to «Gouzelos» and married a Greek-speaking woman, descendant of genuinely Greek Macedonians. My friend felt himself to be 100% Greek, despite the fact that his father had a Slavic grandfather and a Slavic surname. (To be exact he was more than 50% Greek and less than 50% Slav!) This was a very typical kinship situation. Gene Studies have indicated an EXTREME similarity between the DNA of Slavs and the DNA of Greeks in the area of today’s Macedonia, Bulgaria and FYROM.

    Rigas Feraios, the Greek intellectual who laid the foundations for the revolution(s) against the Ottomans, had the dream of a United Balkan State, where Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, and others, could live democratically and help one another.

    Well, perhaps Rigas Feraios’s writings can become again very useful, to improve the relations between Greek and Slavic Macedonians today!

  35. Well, Ο Αιρετικός or whatever your name is, my first 2 comments that I already deeply regretted about apply exactly to kind of people like you. You obviously suffer from severe brainwash or maybe even brain damage, who knows. Too bad for you. By the way, I am proud of my English writing due to the fact that I moved in the US 4 years ago from Macedonia and for this period of time I improved it quite a bit. We can still understand each other, can we? Now back to the topic. It’s so funny that you speak about removing the nationalists and extremists in my country but you strongly support those in Greece, «You see the fly in the other man eye but not the elephant in yours».

    Fact is that Macedonia was partitioned in 1913. There still remain a considerable number of ethnic Macedonians living in northwestern Greece and the Greek government refuses to recognize their existence. The modern notion of the nation-state is founded on inclusion that members of all races and creeds are allowed to consider themselves nationals of any given nation. The Greek argument is that you have to be of Greek lineage to be a part of a Macedonian nation and that a person who might happen to speak a Slavic language cannot be. That, at its core, is RACISM.
    Greece has only occupied part of Macedonia since 1913. Since then, ethnic Macedonians have been, murdered, raped, expelled from their homes, names of people and villages changed, and have been refused to refer to themselves and speak Macedonian. How can it be possible that there are no minorities in Greece??????? Greek’s neglect of ethnic minorities in their own country. And, when I say ethnic minorities, I do not only refer to Macedonians, who happen to live in the Northern part of Greece, but Turks, Albanians, and others, as well. While Greece declares itself as an ethnically pure country, the truth is something different, and the world knows that. You don’t believe me? Check this one out, Human Rights Watch report on Greece.

    Another “Slav Macedonian” propaganda, huh?!

    In 1948 there was the Civil War in Greece and Communists lost the war. Macedonians in Greece then supported the Communists, who had promised them decent human rights (such as the right to speak their own language). These people, after the war were either killed or expelled from the country. The genocide that was done to the Macedonians happened just 60 years ago. Many people who lost their houses and properties are still alive. You cannot deny that, they are still live witnesses. And, they want their properties back. There are 2,500 cases in Strasbourg against Greece about this. The Greek government then ‘generously’ gave the property free of charge to Greeks who came to live in the Northern Greece. Greece does not want justice, but wants eradication of the Macedonians.

  36. How comes that we the Macedonians should wait someone to tell us that we are an artificial nation? Are you out of your minds? I’m really curious, how the normal, typical Greek people really believe that we (Macedonians) took that name (Macedonian) just like that? We woke up one day, looking through all the names database in the world from ancient times up to now, and chose Macedonia as the most beautiful, strong historical, only for showing off and irritating the neighbors?
    No one can tell me how to feel. It is a basic human right to call myself with the name that I (or my parents) gave it to me. My predecessors gave me the name Macedonian, and no one can persuade me that they were wrong. And, just for your information, the maps that you’re claiming that Macedonians are using in the schools are part of the history. They study it as part of the history, and these maps are not prepared by the Macedonians, at the first place. This is a HISTORY.

  37. And stop with that Slavo-Macedonian Albanian crap. FYI, 25% of the population in Republic of Macedonia is Albanian minority who enjoys full rights, unlike the Albanian minority in Greece.

  38. Well, I am glad you commented, «Republic of Macedonia», even though it is extremely late and I _must_ go to sleep in a few minutes.

    I think you are right on many issues, but maybe you don’t realize that (at least as far as I am concerned) I don’t disagree with you, while at the same time, I don’t disagree with MOST of what «Heretic» has said.

    Very briefly, then:
    1) First, I would like to say you misunderstood Heretic, and I can prove this:

    It’s so funny that you speak about removing the nationalists and extremists in my country but you strongly support those in Greece, “You see the fly in the other man eye but not the elephant in yours”.

    Well, nationalists and extremists in Greece, my friend, are NOT people like Heretic. You can call him a bit biased, sometimes, but if you read in his blog his rhetorhic against Karatzaferis (and against the extreme right in Greece) you will understand him better, I think.

    An «extremist» in Greece is NOT someone who DOES recognize Slavic Macedonians as (another type of) Macedonians, wishing for some way to distinguish between their identity and Greek Macedonian identity; an extremist is someone who does not recognize Macedonian Slavs at all!

    It took me personally a few years to wake up from the nationalist propaganda in Greece, and I am still waking up, thinking, collecting data, seeing things ALSO from your point of view.

    This, however, does NOT mean that I will applaud YET another form of nationalist propaganda, of the opposite side: One that denies (now) the right of Greek Macedonians to feel Macedonian, too.

    Although large parts of today’s Northern Greece WERE inhabited by an overwhelming majority of Macedonian Slavs, there were STILL other parts with genuine Greek-speaking Greek Macedonians. This is a fact.

    I am afraid I cannot agree with the propaganda that teaches your people nationalist doctrines that you are «the ONLY Macedonians», this is all, and on this issue I agree with Heretic. I also don’t agree that Alexander was a… Slav.

    As regards «artificial» national identities, ALL national identities ARE more-or-less artificial anyway. The Greek national identity was ALSO to a very large extent totally artificial. People who spoke a dialect of Albanian (Arbanites) were classified as Greeks because of their religion, and because they fought against the Turks side by side with the Greeks. In some parts of Greece, they were ALSO the overwhelming majority. After a couple of generations or so, they started experiencing themselves as Greek. If you call them Albanian today, they might insult you!

    2) I will now make a comment that perhaps our Heretic friend will not agree with, but… it’s OK to disagree respectfully, I think:

    I believe that Greek nationalist propaganda has BLINDED TOTALLY the overwhelming majority of Greek people, to believe in their OWN largely (but not totally-) artificial national identity, to expel from their minds ANY memory or idea of any other identity. As a result, our reaction to the birth of your young Slavic Macedonian nation was SO extreme and SO stupid, that we… lost a lot because of this!

    I remember myself getting angry with your country, fifteen years ago, NOT knowing the sad historic facts about Slavic Macedonian identity.
    It took me years to learn, and it was hard because I had to check out everything I learned, many times, before accepting it.

    I think nobody is totally free of all brainwashing, but in this small discussion, please try to see the positive results: The Heretic agreed (essentially) with the historical facts you _also_ mention, in the previous comments discussing the site by Nakratzas. This does not make him an extremist at all, I think!

    On the contrary, the issue here is to get rid of extremism, as well as mass stupidity: And there is nothing more stupid than the Greek denial of minority rights, of previous years…

  39. And stop with that Slavo-Macedonian Albanian crap. FYI, 25% of the population in Republic of Macedonia is Albanian minority who enjoys full rights, unlike the Albanian minority in Greece.

    Albanians in your country are native citizens, not immigrants, I think.

    I totally support immigrant rights in Greece, but this has nothing to do with it.

    25% is NOT a small number at all. It’s going to become more like 50%, in the next few years. ONE more reason that your country can NOT represent the entirety of Macedonians, not only in the Balkans, but also inside your country as well.

    You have EVERY right to feel and call yourselves Macedonian, this is true and I respect it. But you must safeguard the right of OTHER types of Macedonians to feel and call themselves Macedonians, too.

    Macedonia is a Geographic Region. Nobody can own it, or present his own PART in it as representative of the WHOLE region. The part cannot absorb the whole or represent the whole. The distinction between different types of Macedonians is a necessary distinction.

    As I said, personally I STILL don’t give a damn. But SO many people are feeling offended, for NO REASON AT ALL. BOTH you AND we, are DESPERATELY TRYING to OWN an identity which does NOT belong to ANY of us! 🙂

  40. The Greek argument is that you have to be of Greek lineage to be a part of a Macedonian nation and that a person who might happen to speak a Slavic language cannot be. That, at its core, is RACISM.

    OF COURSE, it’s racism. Macedonians were BOTH Slavs AND Greeks, as well as other ethnicities (Vlachs, Roms, etc).

    Greece is PAYING for this racism. We must wake up and abandon it.

    You, unfortunately, are IN THE PROCESS of being brainwashed into an EXACT OPPOSITE RACISM: – The idea that ONLY Slavs can be Macedonians.

  41. Socialistic Republic of Macedonia was one part of Yugoslavia from 1945-1991. When I was a kid almost every summer my parents used to take me on a vacation in Greece and we were crossing the border with our passports where clearly was typed: Socialistic Republic of Macedonia, nationality: Macedonian. I have never had any problems with anyone, anywhere, about anything in Greece. If you guys had objections about our name and nationality why you did not object back then but after 50 or so years all at sudden Greece came up with the idea, «Oh wait, we are Macedonians too, aren’t we»? I really cannot comprehend your theory about the Slav-Macedonians, Greek-Macedonians etc. but it is certainly a progress from what your government use to call us, «The Skopians», hi, hi!
    I have never heard of French-Italians or Turk-Bulgarians or… You are either Greek or Macedonian. You can be a Macedonian who lives in Greece or a Greek who lives in Macedonia, or a Greek who lives in the Greek province called Macedonia. As I’ve mentioned before, we have Albanians who live in Macedonia, also there are Macedonians who live in Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, US, Canada, Japan etc. None of these countries call us Slav-Macedonians, but simply Macedonians.
    I urge you to read more independent articles (not Macedonian or Greek) regarding this matter and you may learn something different from what you know.

  42. What the self-proclaimed «heretic» writes, epitomizes and embodies the nationalist «tsamboukas» spirit of the large majority of Greeks today; this nauseating mixture of stupidity, aggressiveness, feeling of superiority and contempt for everybody else except themselves or those who share their obsessions. As well as their hypocrisy to think that only the others are nationalists and that they themselves have nothing to do with that «disease» and indeed that they start to «break free from the bonds of the religious nuts».

    This stupidity is shown abundantly in what he claims in substance, but most of all, it is shown in the fact that he took for granted I AM A MACEDONIAN! So, addressing to me, he writes e.g.:

    … if the Communists wanted to gain part of Albania at that time, they would have called you “Albanians” or “Illyrians” …

    Well, no, my friend, the Communists, or anybody else, would NOT have called me “Albanian” or “Illyrian”, because I am a Greek citizen, born in Thessaloniki, a descendant of (partly Turkish-speaking) «Romioi» from Asia Minor. But for fanatics like you, who adhere 100% to the totalitarianism of national ideology, it is inconceivable that a Greek should have such views, so if somebody does not share the delirious nationalist views you hold, (and that you have the nerve to call «heretic», while it is the most mainstream within the Greek society), it is self-evident for you that they must be «Skopjans».

  43. As far as the «substance» (if one can call it this way) of his claims, my response is: I DON’T GIVE A SHIT -and so does EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD except for Greek nationalists- whether the macedonian nation was invented in the 1930s, the 1910s or the 1950s, and whether it was invented by Communists, by liberals or by extraterrestrials. Whatever the case, this is irrelevant today; this nation DOES EXIST. All nations were invented at a certain point in history and by certain people. The Greek nation, e.g., was invented in the end of the 18th- beginning of the 19th century by bourgeois liberals. So what? This does not make it any better or worse than any other nation. Implying that some nations are not worthwhile existing according to the way they were formed, is practically racist, because it installs a hierarchy between nations.

    The point that the macedonian language is «merely a dialect of the BULGARIAN language», even if it is true, is also irrelevant. OK, let’s say it is. So what? For linguists, there is no substantial clear-cut scientific distinction between a language and a dialect, it is a matter of point of view. Why should we care whether Macedonian is a dialect? The point is that it is a linguistic code that millions of people have used and still use in order to communicate, to fall in love, to write books and songs, to make TV shows … So it is a language. What would we gain if we try to deny that?

  44. «heretic as well», you obviously fail to understand the difference between a political party’s invention (which wanted to flare up nationalisms and jingoisms in the Balkans for reasons that you’d have to be blind to not see) and a true nation.

    Also, maybe YOU have never heard of French-Italians, but in fact there are French-Canadians, Anglo-Canadians, Afro-Americans, Latino-Americans (i.e. mostly Mexicans who live in the US) etc.

    You do have a point in that the criteria for discerning a language from a dialect are arbitrary. Since, however, the «macedonian» language is indeed a unique language of its own, how can you explain to me the fact that, when I visited Florina two years ago accompanied by a Bulgarian friend of mine and met a few «ethnic Macedonians», she could VERY easily comprehend everything that was spoken in the «macedonian» language? Mind you, she speaks only Bulgarian, Greek and English. And when I asked her how, she told me that the «so-called macedonian language», to use her own words, is merely Bulgarian.

    As for your claims that I display stupidity in my writings, your resort to ad hominem attacks shows quite clearly that you are desperate to make an argument, but can’t. My condolences.

  45. Political parties are not outside this world. The members of political parties are also ordinary people. It makes no difference at all if a nation was invented by members or non members of a party. For that matter, all nations were invented by people adhering to a social-political ideology. Membership in one or several parties is a formal criterion. And, in any case, whoever invented a nation, the existence of it afterwards becomes autonomous from this founding moment. Currently, we have two million people who feel, and know since they were born, that they belong to the Macedonian nation. This is what makes this nation a reality, not the question of who and why created it.

    I -and everybody- can explain very easily the fact that a Bulgarian can understand Macedonian. Why shouldn’t she? The explanation is called «similarity between languages». Both Bulgarian and Macedonian are slavic languages, just as Serbocroatian, Polish, Russian, Czech etc. are. The speakers of most of these languages can understand some or all of the rest of them. Also, if a Portuguese person goes to Romania, they will probably understand the language. One can imagine a lot of such other pairs (Italian/Spanish/French etc.). On the other hand, if a Greek listens to two speakers of the Cypriot or the Pontic language speaking to eachother, he will not be able to understand. Nevertheless, these two idioms are classified as dialects of Greek rather than autonomous languages. So similarity and understandability between languages is not an absolute criterion.

  46. Good morning Gentlemen!

    Heretic and Heretic-as-well,
    I think none of you is AS bad as the other one thinks!

    Evidently, leaving… Macedonian Salad AND Greek Salad aside,
    you have been PROVED to be genuinely 100% Balkanian!

    Because… NOBODY ELSE in this sad planet, would argue against his opponent in debate using your PARTICULAR style, which follows a new Logical Law of Balkanian Oppositional Hyper-Symmetry! 🙂 However,
    I will NOT explain to you the Metaphysical Inventiveness of this great idea, because I do not want to spoil the fruitful Intellectual Debate, with its strongly internationalist Logic Methodology,
    so I WELCOME IT.

    However, perhaps none of you is aware, that (personally speaking) I feel strong nostalgia for my Spiritual Home, which is NOT Greece, NOR Macedonia (slavic or otherwise), NOR any Balkan or non-Balkan nation. but ONLY the Genuine Lost Home of the Spirit, destroyed by Big Alex’s hordes when they invaded Athens and Athenian Democracy ended. I feel I must have been one of the FEW succesfully disguised (at that time) Extraterrestrial Foreigners, who entered human wombs to be born as humans in (as the Chinese say) «an interesting time».

    But I have questions for you gentlemen:
    1) Why is MOST Balkanian music of SUCH bad quality? I downloaded last night some Macedonian Slavic Music and it was EQUALLY bad as Greek Mavedonian music. Was the bad quality due to Turkish influences?

    2) Why do you, heretic-as-well, continually try to prove that the (original) heretic is an extremist? This shows you don’t know exactly WHAT ASSHOLES and WHAT EXTREMISTS Greece contains, even today.

    3) WHAT am I going to do, if you STUBBORN Non-Greek Macedonians win your case everywhere else, except Greece, and meanwhile… HATRED AGAINST you in Greece will be worsened so much that it will become impossible for… crazy internationalists like myself to live here?

    Finally, I TOLD YOU: Give those dogs a bone. Give us peace. ONLY one adjective. That’s ALL they want. Come on, Come on! «Makedonia – Skopje» would have been FINE by me, but the dogs mistook it for Cat food instead of Dog Food!…. tsk, tsk, tsk…

  47. @heretic
    EXACTLY. Moreover, if you were a REAL extremist, you would have already exploded AGAINST ME AS WELL, after the… anti-nationalist sacrilege I just committed, at precisely… 11 minutes after 11 a.m. Greek time.

    11:11 !!!

  48. Well, while I certainly don’t view Alex in the sarcastic way you presented him, I thought your satire was a nice approach that could help intercept «macedonian» extremism. By the way…

    Since we already have those stupid expansionist maps that the «non-nationalists» (my pock-marked fanny) in FYROM keep on circulating with the blessing of the USA, perhaps this could be a good idea:

  49. I did not call anybody personally an «extremist». I was just repeating the other user’s words («nobody wants to wipe out your country from the map; at least nobody except psychopaths and extremists») and claiming that, whoever feels «provoked» when other people simply talk about the Macedonian nation and language, then they apparently want to wipe these out from the map, so we should classify them as psychopaths and extremists.

  50. Welcome περίεργος! Long time no see (hehe)

    Well, automatic reflex reactions of all kinds take place, all the time, among humans, at their current imperfect stage of evolution. I assure you that -personally- I can NEVER be offended if anyone calls himself or his nation ANYTHING, including the most preposterous or imaginary things.
    However, what we seem to be facing here, is not these automatic reflex reactions (which I would not call psychopathic or extremist but only CONDITIONED – as in «conditioned reflex»)…
    what we seem to be facing here, is the clash between two entirely different, apparently (mutually) incompatible Imaginary Constructions of (national) collective identity, one being the Greek-only-Macedonian and the other being the Slav-only-Macedonian.

    To sum up my position, I do NOT trust… earthlings(hehe) at all, when they indulge in unnecessarily «incompatible» Constructions of their collective Imagination; my goal being to MAKE them mutually compatible and capable of peaceful coexistence…

    To follow Castoriadis, we ought to raise our consciousness to the level of CONSCIOUS CONSTRUCTION of Identity, both Individual as well as Collective.

    Personally, my «tribe» is ELSEWHERE. To get a glimpse of it, click on the followng COSMIC CONSCIOUSNESS LINK:

    UPDATE: there are even better links than this in my next comment, if you bother to take a look…

    (leaving the office now, playing music to raise spirits on my way back home)…

  51. Just to answer to your Slav-Macedonian theory that you try to enforce here, that we arrived here in the 6th century. Kiro Gligorov, our ex president, the guy that you often love to refer to, was a communist politician, he does not know crap about history. I don’t want to go in details about everything so will let you read the INDEPENDENT articles, who we are, what we are, where we came from, etc… As I said before, I don’t care what happened 2000 years ago, I just want to be recognized for what I feel I am. But since you guys insist that the whole history of the world belongs to Greece, here you go:

    The remarkable results of the recent genetic scientific research (NATIONAL CENTER FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY INFORMATION, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain) on the Macedonians and Greeks scientifically confirmed that TODAY’S MACEDONIAN NATION IS DIRECT DESCENDENT OF THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS, NOT RELATED NEITHER TO THE BULGARIANS, NOR TO THE GREEKS. The genetic study showed that the ancient Macedonian Genes found in today’s Macedonians belong to the «older» Mediterranean substratum along with the remains of the ancient nations of Phrygia (Anatolia), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Phoenicia (Lebanon). The Greeks on the other hand, do not belong to this group, but rather have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.

    HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached:

    1) Macedonians belong to the «older» Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians,

    2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the «older» Mediterranenan substratum,

    3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.


    Another «Slav-Macedonian» propaganda, huh?

  52. @Republic of Macedonia

    A ha ha… You seem to have a tendency for FIXED IDEAS about me. In fact, I am not bothered AT ALL with those news, about the DNA of your people, if they are correct. It is really worth investigating, as well as asking other questions, such as HOW did the language of your people become a Slavic dialect of Bulgarian, more-or-less…

    There is ONE problem with these DNA investigations, which is extremely obvious, but you overlooked completely: The fact that specific individuals were probably used in the DNA tests. Can we get a sample of DNA results of wider statistical significance? It might be extremely interesting.

    I will look into this issue, in a few minutes.

    For the moment, I do NOT «enforce» any theory. Given the fact that Slavic Macedonians have inhabited the region of Ancient Macedonia for an extremely long time of many centuries, it is ENTIRELY LOGICAL that _some_ ancient Macedonian DNA was inherited by them; in fact it is more likely to appear in YOUR genes (ancient Macedonian DNA) than in the genes e.g. of Greek immigrants who came to the same region in the 20th century. I tend to trust as reliable the facts (whether or not it’s unpleasant for Greeks – I don’t really care)… that there was initially a much larger proportion of Slav-speaking Macedonians in these territories (that Greece later on occupied) than Greek-speaking ones. We HAVE to face these facts and allow scientists to do their work thoroughly. Till then, however, we ought to be VERY careful about the way our OWN MIND creates and sustains (any) identity…

    Personally, I don’t experience myself as Greek but as a World Citizen with Cosmic Consciousness, who HAPPENS to have been born in Greece…

    I also think Ancient Greek culture (e.g. of Democracy and Philosophy) is quite independent of ANY genes; it is an Energy Field, among other things, which evolves with time, but remains as an influence in our countries, as a «Morphogenetic Field» (as Ruper Sheldrake calls it).

    Well, my friend, IF those findings DO indicate, conclusively, that your people have indeed descended (to a very large extent) from Ancient Macedonians, then my reaction is to shake your hand and exclaim:

    P.S. I will personally have a VERY GOOD LAUGH, with all the pseudo-Greek Turkish-cultured assholes, who take it FOR GRANTED that they have THE Greek Genes, if it turns out some day, that YOU, the Slavic-speaking Macedonians, are… MORE GREEK THEN THEM genetically! a ha ha…
    The REAL question however, is:
    – ARE YOU PREPARED to… become Greek? a ha ha…. (TWO jokes at the SAME time)

  53. @Rep.of.Macedonia
    P.S.2 I just did a quick first round of Google searches that yielded the following, as regards your quoted DNA research of 2001:

    1) For Greek readers, critiques of this research by Greek bloggers:
    (they emphasize certain racialist implications -but I haven’t made up my mind yet, if they are correct or not)

    2) One of the researchers’ problems, caused by… Jewish protests:
    (in his other research about the DNA of Jews and Palestinians)

    3) A related web-page (of mid-2007) for scientific reviews is blank:

    4) Lively NEW discussion in a Greek forum (April 2008) about all this:

    (more links will be added to THIS comment later on…)

    5) A part of the paper’s conclusions seems reasonable to me; but it doesn’t say that Greeks are descendants of Ethiopians or Egyptians. It says something considerably different:

    «it is hypothesized that there could have been a migration from southern Sahara which mixed with ancient Greeks to give rise to a part of the present day Greek genetic background. The admixture must have occurred in the Aegean Islands and Athens area at least (Figs 1 and 2). The reason why this admixture is not seen in Crete is unclear but may be related to the influential and strong Minoan empire which hindered foreigners establishment (10). Also, the time when admixture occurred could be after the overthrown of some of the Negroid Egyptian dynasties (Nubian or from other periods) or after undetermined natural catastrophes (i.e.: dryness). Indeed, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came from Egypt (4, 25).»

    P.S.3 Aha! There is more…
    Although this Greek blogger appears to be a bit nationalist, here is something VERY interesting:

    Famous genetic scientists publish in Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002) a essay claiming that Population genetics cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.
    The authors make some extraordinary claims.
    They remarked that the Spanish Lab used only a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.
    The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. These results contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups.
    These famous scientists are…..

    Neil Risch
    Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of
    Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

    Alberto Piazza
    Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry,
    University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy

    L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
    Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of
    Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA
    The second often-cited study from 2001 by Arnaiz-Villena et al….
    The second paper dealt specifically with the relatedness of Palestinians and Israelis and was subsequently «deleted from the scientific literature» because, according to the editor-in-chief Nicole Suciu-Foca, it ……confounded the elegant analysis of the historic basis of the people of the Mediterranean Basin with a political viewpoint representing only one side of a complex political and historical issue.
    The disputed data continues to be cited all over the Internet, mostly by White Supremacists, Afrocentrists and Macedonian Slav nationalists who have political motivations to relate modern or ancient Greeks to black Africans.
    However, it’s no longer referenced by population geneticists in contemporary research, mainly due to the criticism of Cavalli-Sforza et al.

  54. P.S.4) Good morning (to whoever is reading).
    11-12 years ago I had published a humourous little Sci-Fi story about an Ancient Macedonian being…. cloned in a biotechnology lab and then multiplied massively to an entire Army of Ancient Macedonian clones, eventually… taking over Geographic Macedonia! 🙂
    Well, at the time I thought this was just a joke (influenced by the film «Jurassic Park»); however, today this seems far more feasible than ever before in 21st century Science. Here is the evidence:
    1) Cloning Extinct Animals«It may now be possible to bring back extinct species by cloning dead specimens, and growing them in the wombs of similar or related animals».
    2) Prehistoric Baby Mammoth Found: Should She Be Cloned? -By Daniel Dunkin, Jul 18, 2007
    3) High-tech tools link T. rex to chickens: -Harvard team Identifies proteins in dinosaur bone (By Colin Nickerson) April 13, 2007

    Well, in the coming weekend I will try to re-publish that old story about the «Ancient Macedonian clone» (with some upgrades) in my Futurologist blog (in an English post this time):

    In 1997, I also did a computer simulation of… nationalist bigotry called «Artificial Bigot», a program that emulated (imperfectly) nationalist rhetoric relevant to the Macedonian issue:
    Here is some sample output of «Artificial Bigot»:

    Given the revival of… Balkan disputes over Macedonia, this old program (of crude Artificial Intelligence) will also be revived, in the next few days; this time much more expressive and enriched with giant vocabularies snatched from Wordnet and Moby, etc.

  55. What a crack of shit…


    Excuse my language,, but I had to struggle through an amazing amount of crap, especially the portion referring to DNA studies and such.

    (Come on everybody, don’t you know that all of the Balkan population has a ridiculously high amount of Turkish genes? Tsk, tsk and tsk one more time).

    As far as the Slavic inhabitants of Macedonia are concerned, the mere fact that they speak a Bulgarian influenced tongue, is a good enough reason to alienate them from any *claimed* genetic ties to the ancient Greek speaking Zeus- worshiping Macedonians. Go see the archaeological findings for Hephaestus sake.
    (Btw I don’ give a red cent about Orthodox Christianity)

    You know Zeus? Or perhaps you don’t.

    You are obsessed with that sword-wagging Alexander character, ‘cause your country sucks bigtime (Just as Greece does, but to the 3rd power, the very least), is a big zero, nada, zilch, nil, economically, culturally and militarily.

    Start speaking like Aristotle’s writings and you might actually become true descendants of the ancient Macedons.

    Final score:
    FYROM : zip – Pretty much every other European country including Albania: A lot, or a little, or at least something called “Besha”

    And guess what, within some generations, Albanians will become the majority in FYROM, devouring you and your Alexandrian hard-on, creating Kosova Mk.II.
    Read your demographics. Good riddance as far as I’m concerned, you people are total ball busters with your whining.

    Deal with your REAL problems.

    To Greek extremists (Or should I say Hellenic?).
    These Slavic speakers have been in the area from about 600 A.D.
    and they may most certainly call themselves Macedonians after 1400 years.
    If their country is called Macedonia – Skopje or Macedonia – «on the rocks», or «Macedonia is a piece of shit I think we should nuke the place» that’s fair and just.

    Snap out of your delusions of grandeur.

    And besides, when comrade Tito was creating the Macedonian S.R. after WW II, where were you guys?

    Man this is tiring…

    Now, as captain of the Vogon construction fleet currently in orbit around your planet, I must sadly inform you that I’m preparing the demolition of Earth, in order to make way for a hyperspace bypass.

    Good riddance earthlings and God bless and stuff.

  56. I couldn’t express the situation any better, Space Commander Polsemannen.

    My Mission (as mutant Greek Dolphin from UNserious) on this area of the planet is also complete! 🙂

    nia nia nia nia…. DNA
    bla bla bla bla…. DNA…




  58. P.S.
    the funniest thing, of course, is that I simply HAD NO IDEA that the scientific paper was faulty (or a «hoax» as you say – although the word «hoax» is not strictly correct I think). The flaws of the paper had been exposed before, but… I had NO idea that this was so. As a result, my own honesty and humourous sincerity was TESTED by the… Gods in Olympus! (they must have had a GOOD LAUGH too, if they… exist). 🙂

  59. @Republic of Macedonia my ass

    You can wipe your ass now with this:

    Nature 415, 115 (10 January 2002); doi:10.1038/415115b

    Dropped genetics paper lacked scientific merit

    Sir – Even though the controversial withdrawal of a paper on the genetic relatedness of Palestinians and Jews by the journal Human Immunology (see Nature 414, 382; 2001) is a minor episode compared with the tragedies caused by ethnic/religious conflicts over past decades, the issues involved are worth revisiting.

    The stated purpose of the paper by Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al. was to «examine the genetic relationships between the Palestinians and their neighbours (particularly the Jews) in order to: (1) discover the Palestinian origins, and (2) explain the historic basis of the present … conflict between Palestinians and other Muslim countries with Israelite Jews».

    They conclude: «Jews and Palestinians share a very similar HLA genetic pool that supports a common ancient Canaanite origin. Therefore, the origin of the long-lasting Jewish–Palestinian hostility is the fight for land in ancient times.»

    It is difficult to believe that knowledge of genes may help to explain the present conflict. Although population genetics can address issues of relatedness of populations, mating patterns, migrations and so on, obviously it cannot provide evidence about reasons for conflicts between people.

    Our primary concern, however, is that the authors might be perceived to have been discriminated against for political, as opposed to legitimate scientific, reasons.

    Even a cursory look at the paper’s diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

    The limitations are made evident by the authors’ extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

    We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.

    Neil Risch
    Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

    Alberto Piazza
    Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Torino, Via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italy

    L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
    Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California 94305, USA

  60. @doing
    EXACTLY. This is a text I also discovered; it was also the reason I started laughing
    (together with Athena/Theoulini and…. Space Commander Polsmannen)!

    However, I was too… shy to copy and paste the whole damn thing here, since it seemed inappropriate or abusive of my… authority as a blogger «(after talking SO much and giving SO many links). I wanted OTHERS to respond, so I welcome your response.

    I really think we have to REALIZE the amount of extremism that exists in The Slavoalbanian Republic, but realize it without hatred, without nationalism, without bad words, hard feelings, without ANY desire for conflict at all. THEN it will become OBVIOUS to the world, that in this particular case, Greece HAS BECOME MODERATE and the SlavoAlbanian Republic is unfortunately becoming more and more extremist.

    I mean… HELL, yesterday I saw SO many aggresssive antiGreek video clips in YouTube with maps of «Great Macedonia» that I was shocked.

    Well, I am afraid, these guys have acquired a SHARP CRITIC: Me… 🙂
    If an internationalist who does not even believe in borders or in the exclusiveness of «macedonian-ness» TELLS you this, my Slav friends, you’d better start feeling ALARMED. You have crossed the line, beyond which there is only fanaticism and isolation.

  61. Μακεδονισμός και άλλα δαιμόνια

    [Admin/Omadeon – please read the _next_ comment; your comment is now replaced with a URL/link to its new location, in the appropriate GREEK post, – CLICK HERE to see it]

  62. @mod-gr
    Thank you for your contribution. However. in THIS POST please do NOT post ANY messages in Greek AT ALL. This is an important post, judging from the many visitors (almost 500 so far), and ALL the comments have been in English. They must continue to be so, because it is very important to discuss the issue constructively with others (Slavic Macedonians especially).

    So, I will copy your comment in a few minutes, in another thread, which is more recent as well as written in Greek. This is (of course) NOT censorship. Your comment will be replaced with a small link to the new location of your comment, as an «UPDATE».

    Finally, whenever copying pasting articles from elsewhere, please AT LEAST respect the LINK of the original, including it in your comment.
    (I will try to locate the original article and do this, in a while)


  63. Замечательный домен –, вы его давно отхватили? Ничего не продаю, всё дарю для вашего же счастья
    Могу поделиться почти свои опытом:
    Невестам, думающим и где же этот долбанный жених олигарх надо итти сюда сначала –
    Если кто чего хочет спросить, на мыло скиньте, плиз

  64. @arelsrold
    a VERY interesting kind of Spam, it doesn’t harm anyone to know that this domain is now considered…. eligible for Russian Brides seeking foreign husbands! 🙂

    I simply can’t avoid feeling sympathy for your Cyrillic alphabet
    (NOT to mention the beautiful Russian women)
    So I saved you from Akismet, being a gallant e-knight (aren’t I)?

    An automatic translation of your comment is now ALMOST readable, through google translations:

    Your site can also be translated automatically, even better:

    Many kisses! 🙂

  65. Look, in Greece people may joke about their «nationalists» which are
    maybe a couple percent, but compared to them the OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT of FYROM are lunatics, who teach their people that they hail from Alexander(just ask jews who fought Alexander’s successors the victory over whom are they celebrating in Hanuka) , that greeks come from subsaharan africa ,that greece «occupies» macedonia since 1913, that there is a «macedonian minority» or other fairy tales. Macedonia
    was greek in ancient times, greek in byzantine times, then bulgarians come, massacre much of the population, eventually settle in parts of it, then turks come, then bulgarians(VMRO) try to slavisize or exterminate the greek and serb populations there, the supposedly nonexistent greek macedonians fright back and manage to survive until liberated in the balkan wars. Then population exchanges happen when people are asked what country they belong and move there. I would also not have a problem with a slav
    macedonian minority in greece, though elections -which in greece do not use guns- show no such thing, but no one can claim to represent some 2.5 mil greek macedonians without their consent.

  66. @tom
    Well, what you say is very true, about «the lunatics in power in FYROM». This is essentially the new problem.

    The extremist minority in FYROM has finally managed to brain-wash the majority. They now claim they are the «only true and original Macedonians»! This is grossly unfair to 2.5 million Greek Macedonians, who don’t identify with FYROM and don’t think of themselves as anything very different than other Greeks.

    The moderate Greek position is logically consistent and far from anything extreme. It is also a «win-win game» stance, i.e. if FYROM compromises, _both_ countries will benefit.
    If it does not compromise, however, _both_ countries will continue to have numerous (possibly worse) problems…

  67. omadeon,
    1) in addition to the replies to the bbc blog you mention, you may want to look at post by grizzly and a few nongreeks, like Werner, scotandr1, and charmingfelix. But by far the most convincing quotes are by branko, which is an anthology of lunatic positions.
    2) The only good thing I see is that with the new moderate greek position the mood is changing and many people, not just greeks defend the greek position, look for example in
    and many other pro-fyrom blogs.
    However, I would not expect a solution in this decade,
    probably not in our lifetime either the way things are.

  68. @Tom
    Thanks very much for the valuable information you brought us here.

    As regards a solution of the «naming dispute», I think there is a fair chance it might be solved _quite_ soon, either this year, or when a less fanatical political party wins the FYROM elections.

    As you probably heard, moderate people and politicians in FYROM have been recently slandered in their own country and considered to be treacherous, but this abnormal situation can’t go on forever. There are already dissident voices in FYROM beginning to recognize the absurdity of being «the one and only Macedonia»; realizing that a simple, decent compromise will harm nobody – except nationalistic fairy tales, and irredentist ideas which are doomed to fail.

    I tend to be optimistic, provided Greece remains firm in its moderate position, does NOT provoke angry sentiments in FYROM and tries to promote friendship and respect instead.
    BTW, I personally don’t like much the Greek government, but on the «naming dispute» with FYROM I support their position.

  69. P.S.
    The long-term problem of course might take longer to solve, but if FYROM compromises they will join the E.U. and this will practically (almost immediately) dissolve all their sick irredentism and all their fanaticism (together with other, very practical problems).
    If they don’t compromise, however, they should NOT be allowed into the E.U. and they could try to deal with their own social problems ALONE. This is unfortunate; it might feed their anger against Greece, but -in the end- it might also make them compromise, after all.

    The important thing is that Greece remains _firm_ refusing to give consent about FYROM membership in the E.U. – which is the most important thing for FYROM itself.
    About NATO, personally I don’t really care, and I also think it is less important, since it will _not_ bring about economic or social relief in FYROM anyway. However, the veto on NATO membership is _also_ good and Greece must continue its present stance. Given the fact that I am personally NOT at all a nationalist and also given the fact that there are now many other Greek non-nationalists, in favour of a composite name for FYROM, the situation is very serious, and the truth is now on our side, internationally.

    We should emphasize once more, something you said:

    …with the new moderate greek position the mood is changing and many people, not just greeks defend the greek position…

  70. I basically agree, though I am less optimistic about FYROM changing. As to what is nationalistic, this often translates to «someone who would be called a patriot if he were one of us». I mean I have seen on this issue accusations of greek «nationalism» by people whose country renamed «french fries»
    at a time they did not like France! Or people who side with Turkey. Or people who cannot take a no, even if this no is the result of a democratic process.
    When we refer to «nationalists» in greece I do not see people claiming that greeks are the best in the world(except when they win in football or basketball or something)
    or that others do not deserve to live. I basically see people
    who express themselves via shouts instead of calm but firm arguments. Nationalists may be a misnomer,
    but shouts and extreme positions are not helping anyone’s cause.

  71. @tom
    I was away for many hours and found your comment a few minutes ago.

    Well, what I mean by «FYROM changing» is giving up the known illusion that they represent anything even remotely close to a «Pan-Macedonian representative» dreaming of re-capturing… Salonika. These delusions are not only destructive but also dangerous, as you know, for stability in the Balkans. It’s not an issue of a _real_ danger for Greece, but of a «virtual threat» that creates turmoil, hatred and fanatic emotions against Greece, a «virtual threat» that all of us (in the Balkans) can clearly do better _without_.
    I don’t mind if they still delude themselves _internally_, that they are «the most genuine Macedonians», as long as in all their external relations, and also in their country’s name, no real threat of irredentism is implied against Greece. There is, however, one important exception to this «freedom to fantasize internally in their own country»: Such fantasies should NEVER AGAIN be taught in their schools, or in any way encouraged officially by their government.

    Greece has matured, these days. We have reached the healthy position of dismissing as a lunatic anyone claiming it’s a good idea to… invade FYROM or start military actions of any kind. We have learned to laugh at our own extremists, or treat them with compassionate disagreement. THIS is what FYROM has to do now, reaching a similar position of good relations with Greece and maturity in their own mentality. If they don’t learn this, in the end it will only harm themselves.

    As regards «patriotic non-nationalism» (which is my own philosophy) it is simply the idea that I am not prepared to support my country or my government in any issues where they are wrong; justice and humanism prevail over our own national self-interest. Essentially, it amounts to a more democratic conscience. I still love my country, but want it to succeed more, internationally, by being fairer to others; and also by being fairer to ourselves (as simple citizens).

    This post has already demonstrated the simple fact that a moderate, patriotic but non-nationalistic position is far more powerful internationally than a narrow-minded nationalistic position. To convince non-Greeks we cannot take our own petty national interests for granted; we must re-examine our positions and make sure that we are talking sensibly to the rest of the world. Otherwise, what can we do? Start wars? 🙂

  72. I basically agree, but there is plenty of room in how you interpret «petty national interest»- this has been abused in the past to
    demonize Greece over the fyrom issue or Cyprus over the Anan plan. In my experience when a country has a problem we shold be very wary of dismissing their position as «petty national interest» or «nationalism». This can be very easily abused, e.g by the EU commision for example and others who favor «one EU, one voice, one leadership».

    About threat I agree, though let’s not forget a certain bloody war a couple of years ago between not even a small, poor state and a much bigger and stronger state. Actually it was
    not a war between two states, but between the bigger state and a political party of the weaker state(Hezbullah).
    So education is very important: when you bring up generations to hate the other country, you can expect
    things like that

  73. As a non-nationalist (and also anti-nationalist) I am VERY bored with things like the Anan Plan’s pros and cons. As a result I never managed to read it, or understand properly all the arguments in its favour or against it.

    I think that the overwhelming MAJORITY of our planet’s current dominant-species members ARE narrow-minded, greedy, petty, pig-headed egotistical nationalists, NOT really worth wasting any precious planetary resources any more for their sake, so I don’t expect my sorrow country’s majority to be any different than the rest of the sad biological sewer called «Homo Sapious, the Human (sub-)Species».

    However, in very special circumstances, very rarely, I also do intervene, in a very small way, together with others, if we can stop unnecessary suffering, unnecessary injustices and negative emotions. 🙂 🙂 🙂

  74. I guess then it’s a question of viewing the glass as half-empty or half-full. On occasions -and maybe that’s its only claim to greatness- that subspecies has risen above its norm or nature,
    if one would wantto use such terms, and produced very unnatural things like honesty, democracy and even self-sacrifice. But, like everything else, that should not be taken for granted.
    Anyway, my point is that I do not like big words and flames and especially words that do not mean much. This is why I try to avoid accusing others of things like «nationalism», as this word has been abused in my view in the sense I mentioned above.

  75. I agree with your last paragraph. Sometimes I exaggerate quite deliberately, as you may have guessed! 🙂 It can help clear thinking or it can… blur it even further. (The choice is ours – or the observer’s).

    Labels are inherently limited. It takes courage to stand up for something, rather than nothing; something real and substantial, not something abstract like a generalisation.

    I tend to follow sometimes a Buddhist or Taoist logic. If the problem is exaggeration in the use of one label (such as the label «nationalism») it may be helpful to think of other kinds of categories, which reveal its relative and limited nature. If the problem is so-called «anti-nationalism» (which often is little more than another kind of bias, a false consciousness) then it may be more helpful to love one’s country and express a moderate patriotic stance,.

    Returning to the topic of this post, if FYROM and Greece do reach an agreement about a composite name, both of them will make an important step towards good communication and peace. If FYROM never compromises, angry sentiments in Greece will go on (which is in itself a good reason for a composite name, if Peace is more important than names). If Greece had never compromised, FYROM would feel more and more justified for its own hostility, and so on.

    P.S. The crux of the matter is this:
    Greece has ALREADY compromised. It is now FYROM’s turn to respond.

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  77. [img][/img]
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  78. Hi Folks!

    Just wanted to share my new experience.

    If your system denies to start due to an error corresponding to lost HAL.DLL, invalid Boot.ini or any other critical system boot files you can fix this by using the XP installation CD. Just boot from your XP Setup CD and enter the Recovery Console. Then launch «attrib -H -R -S» on the C:\Boot.ini file and remove it. Run «Bootcfg /Rebuild» and then Fixboot


  79. Hello this is Mike from houston, you got a nice forum here with some good topics and I hope you can help me with some tehnical problems 
    I recently downloaded couple files from limewire and now my computer is acting really messed up, It takes long time to start and after turning on
    I get many notifications from my firewall that something is trying to connect to the internet, Im worried if they may be trojans or viruses and
    that someone is trying to steal my passwords. 

    Please help me, Im kind of low on budget and wouldnt like to take the computer to an expert and pay a lot of cash for it, all the ideas are welcome
    and I will definetly try them! Hope to hear from you soon! 

  80. Well, Mike,
    Thanks for the… honor of asking me (in particular) such a hot question, but I really have no useful answer, hot or cold, at the moment. Even the best I.T. professionals suffer from such problems (I also do, in fact) and need really effective software to cope with them.

    This is not really a forum but a… one-man-show (together with visitors), i.e. a blog.
    However, since you brought up the issue I will investigate it and in the near future will write posts about viruses and spyware. And of course, all discussions are welcome.

    (Hoping you weren’t… «pulling my leg», BTW, as they say)

  81. Mike Mossberg, I know you reading this forum, please contact me, because I can’t find your contact details.

  82. @luteragzfer

    Mike who? 🙂

    I hope he IS reading this blog (not «forum») because it’s the only way to contact you…. (unless you left an e-mail address).

  83. Hi. I repeatedly announce this forum. This is the oldest culture unqualified to ask a topic.
    How multitudinous in this forum are references progressive behind, knavish users?
    Can I bank all the communication that there is?

  84. I am here at a forum newcomer. Until I read and deal with the forum.
    Let’s learn!

  85. Greetings I’m new here
    And it looks like a interesting forum, so just wanted to say hello! :):):)
    And looking forward to participating.
    Going on vacation for a few days, so i’ll be back

  86. @fepeaxiobia

    I hope you are… human ! 🙂

    There have been too many… artificially intelligent bots (comment generator – robots) visiting this particular post.
    (BADLY programmed, as well, I must say.. .tsk, tsk, tsk)

  87. Hi

    As a fresh user i just want to say hi to everyone else who uses this board <:-)

  88. Some peoples says that you need, other that you dont.
    So how to choice?

  89. Spam in this post is very frequent; each time with a different I.P. address,
    mostly very clever spam-attacks, escaping Akismet‘s attention (Akismet=spam-filter).

    Why SO much intelligent spam in THIS post?
    Why this post in particular?

    Well, this post contained satire against the New York Times,
    as well as criticisms of nationalist excesses by F.Y.R.O.Macedonia…

    You can all guess, all the rest…

  90. Hi there! I was wondering if someone knows a nonfree stocks monitor program for my nokia-n95 cell?
    Thank you

  91. hello it is test. WinRAR provides the full RAR and ZIP file support, can decompress CAB, GZIP, ACE and other archive formats.

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  95. OK, I realize that _this_ post in particular has become a regular target for Artificially Intelligent spamming…

    (and I don’t even bother to delete most spam anymore).

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  97. Hi Everyone,
    I have a carpet cleaning business in Houston,TX that was doing pretty good until the economy went bad, and with it my clientele. I have a website for the business but I dont
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  98. I hope there’s good info here
    is there just a lot of spam here or is there some useful info shared?
    Looking to meet new people to exchange info with,so leave me your name
    UPDATE 5 (17-5-2010):
    This particular post was repeatedly flooded with spam, sent over here mostly from automatic spamming engines, during the last two years. This indicates some serious and quite intentional malice, since NO OTHER POST in this blog was attacked, as much as this one. As a matter of fact, The spam problem caused by this post is SO great, that today I decided to take some action: – ALL COMMENTS and PINGBACKS will be CLOSED, from now on, for THIS post! (Hopefully this will prevent the flooding of my spam-bin; We’ ll see…)

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