Dr. Hoare’s Balkan excesses need… anti-nationalist critics

Markos Attila Hoare
Markos Attila Hoare

I first came across Dr. Marko Attila Hoare (and his blog here) by reading his vehement critique (here) against Noam Chomsky. His position on Chomsky -which I found rather extreme– was to label him a «genocide denier», as regards the Srebrenica massacre. His reasons for this seemed to me… rather dubious; they are partly the result of a rather extreme conceptual dichotomy («Procrustean» I would say) that Dr. Hoare draws on a meta-level, e.g. in his article «The Left Revisionists»:

http://nwglassblowing.com/BalkanWitness/hoare.htm (November 2003)

Admittedly, I found this article to be quite amazing, as a useful source of valuable information and sharp insights about former Yugoslavia and about the Bosnian War: -Insights that can undermine constructively many widely prevalent myths and misconceptions, especially the mistakes of  people who supported Milosevic, etc.

On the other hand, I also think that Dr. Hoare‘ s reasoning was partly based on a serious methodological error; a conceptual dichotomy or mutually exclusive Logic disjunction ( Black XOR White) which is false and -politically- extremely dangerous. (I will elaborate on this later…)

There is a profile of Dr. Hoare here, where my… initial inquisitiveness about his middle name «Attila«, as well about his anti-Greekness was resolved –with a smile:

Interviewer’s QUESTION:

  • Who are your political heroes?

Dr. Hoare’s ANSWER:

Ah, well…

So, according to the (39-year-old) British professor Dr. Marko Attila Hoare, Noam Chomsky is a «genocide denier», but… Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is «the greatest contributor to HUMAN EMANCIPATION«(!) rather than a perpetrator of the Armenian[2] and Greek Genocides.

  • Hm…. I guess Marko-Attila was probably raised as a Kemalist; «son of an Englishman and a Croatian woman» but… MAYBE also  partly Turkish? 🙂 UPDATE: All these remarks are -regrettably- wrong; see the comments’ section, for further details.
  • Moreover… WHAT the hell does he find so special about… Tony Blair? (bliah….):mrgreen:

Hm… perhaps Dr. Hoare wants to have… powerful friends in several NATO-loving countries. At the moment, he is regarded almost as a national hero, in Bosnia, «Macedonia«(=FYROM) and Croatia (his mother’s country). Ιt was also… frightfully nice and thoughtful of him, to praise Mr. Tony Blair…😉 (not to mention his… unprecedented, unsurpassed GIFT to Turkish NATIONALISM, about Kemal)

Coming back now, to Dr. Hoare’s positions on Yugoslavia and the Bosnian war, according to him (his 2003 – article mentioned earlier) everyone belongs to one of two (and only two) «camps»: -The «orthodox» camp and the «revisionist» camp, defined by him as follows:

Internationally, political opinion has been divided into two camps characterized by their conflicting analyses of the crisis and views of the correct international response. On the one side were those who viewed the war as a result of Serbian aggression and expansionism and who generally advocated military intervention by the West in response. On the other side were those who viewed the conflict as a civil war between competing nationalisms (Serb, Croat, Muslim, and Albanian) in which the Serb side was if anything less to blame than the others. They tended to blame Western interference for catalysing the conflict and to reject military intervention against Serbian forces

For the sake of convenience, we may refer to the first camp as the ‘orthodox’ and the second as the ‘revisionist’…

I.e.

  • The «orthodox» camp, according to Dr. Hoare, is those people who agreed 100% with every single aspect of NATO‘s policies, including the clumsy and deadly bombings of Serbia (causing immense innocent human casualties).
  • The «revisionist» camp according to Dr. Hoare, is every… lefty intellectual disagreeing with NATO’s policies, automatically assumed to be nothing-but-a vehement Milosevic fan, a «genocide denier» and an islamophobic Serbophile… stalinoid bolshevik – to express Dr. Hoare’s thoughts VERY precisely in total honesty and… anti-nationalist playfulness! 🙂

One disastrous political side-effect of this (black-and-white) type of dichotomy is the demonisation of practically anyone criticising any aspect of NATO’s policies… (E.g. conveniently labeled a «genocide denier» for sinister reasons). This particular attitude (widespread in the late nineties) had very real negative repercussions:

E.g. in the internet discussions of 1999-2002, anyone criticizing e.g. the savage NATO bombings of the Chinese Embassy and the TV building in Belgrade, or the deliberate bombing of Serbian civilians on a train, was IMMEDIATELY labelled a «Milosevic sympathizer» and/or a Stalinist / fascist / commie «genocide denier», by many American net-posters…

Consequently, I am not happy about the rationality of Dr. Hoare’ s extreme lashing out against Noam Chomsky, as well as with some of his other views. However, I also do see his numerous valid points on certain other issues (e.g. the immense, genocidal war-crimes committed by Bosnian Serbs).

So… WHO is this guy? According to Wikipedia,

Marko Attila Hoare (born c. 1970s) is a British historian of the former Yugoslavia who also writes about the current affairs of Southeastern Europe – the Balkans including Turkey and the Caucasus.

I also heard that his extremely critical stance against Greece (especially Greek nationalism) is well known and -among educated Greeks- quite notorious…

Oh yes! Dr. Hoare’s views on Greece are typically more anti-Greek than Gruevski‘s ultra-nationalism; except that they are presented and justified from an anti-nationalist («post-nationalist» – to be precise) point of view. (I am not denying -of course- that some of his criticisms against Greek nationalist excesses are valid). As an example, here is one of his most staunchly anti-Greek blog-posts, where he is interviewed by Slav-Macedonians, offering them practical advice, on how to remain firm,  fanatical, unmoved and patient but also… totally uncompromising towards Greece (in the «name dispute«) till the… end of Greek nationalism (i.e. ALMOST… forever! -hehe): The importance of national patience.

Well, as a Greek anti-nationalist who feels concerned about the rather extreme, irredentist and slavo-phobic (i.e. self-denying) «Macedonian» nationalism of FYROM (which I do call «FYROM» but for very different reasons than the Greek nationalism which Dr. Hoare assumes to be always the case)… I also feel concerned about the fact that -so far- I have been unable to find any decently anti-nationalist Greek critique of Dr. Hoare’s views, throughout the Internet. This is probably because there exist so very few genuine Greek anti-nationalists; most Greek «anti-nationalists» today, are usually self-denying supporters of other Balkan nationalisms.

Ah well… it seems that the only Greek people who stood up against Dr. Hoare‘s… Greekophobia (hehe) are those boring, useless Greek nationalists, who lash-out (against Slavo-Albanian Macedonia) in self-defeating nationalist slogans, like «Macedonia is (only) Greek«. Oh dear!🙂 What a shame

Hence, or otherwise, I extend this (first) attempt of an anti-nationalist critique of Dr. Hoare, by dedicating to him personally, the following exquisit video (I compiled) of FYROMacedonian Racist Ultra-nationalist… metaphysics:

To be fair, there is a rare post by Dr. Hoare, which can be… lovable in Greece:

  • Moreover. the completely one-sided, anti-Greek attitude of Dr. Hoare,  can ONLY add more oil to the fire of  the worst antiquity- based «Macedonist» ultra- nationalism in FYROM, seriously undermining ANY progress in the «name dispute» negotiations,  invalidating (even) Dr. Hoare’s own stated goals of peace and reconciliation in the Balkans; as well as worsening the increasing persecution and slander (in FYROM) against the opposition
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420 comments

  1. Η θεση του Dr. Hoare στο θεμα ειναι ιδιαιτερα περιεργη. Δηλαδη ειναι ΑΔΥΝΑΤΟΝ να καταδικαζει κανεις την παρεμβαση του ΝΑΤΟ αλλα να θεωρει ταυτοχρονα τις πραξεις των Σερβων αποτροπαιες; Οχι μονο κανει τον (ψευδη και χοντροκομμενο) διαχωρισμο μεταξυ «ορθοδοξων» και «ρεβιζιονιστων», αλλα και η ιδια επιλογη λεξεων δειχνει οτι εχει bias προς την «ορθοδοξη» πλευρα (τι την κανει ορθοδοξη;).

  2. ΟΚ Dennis,

    Short translation (since Dr. Hoare has received a pingback):
    You said you disagreed strongly with him, finding his «either- or-» logic incomprehensible, since one CAN condemn NATO intervention AS WELL AS condemn Serb crimes.

    As a matter of fact, however, I believe that in the first phase (the Bosnian war), LONG BEFORE Kossovo and the bombing of Serbia, NATO intervention was minimal; the few bombings were strictly directed at military targets and… in the case of Srebrenica they were stopped after only a few bombs because of… blackmail, by the Serbs: They had kidnapped 30 U.N. soldiers and threatened to kill them if more bombs were thrown at them… So NATO stopped bombing immediately (and 8000 people were massacred, a little later, by the triumphant Serbs, after they marched into the city).

    P.S. As regards bias in favour of the «orthodox» side, you guessed correctly. Read his article; Dr. Hoare assumes the «orthodox» side was 100% correct and that the «revisionists» were all 100% wrong. AS SIMPLE as that….

  3. Anti-fascist and anti-nationalist my ass. The guy, just like his greek self-cancelling «anti-fascist» and «anti-nationalist» counterparts, sides with a hardline nationalism in against what he perceives as nationalism. There’s absolutely no logic in his views and I’m starting to question how he progressed in academia, when his thinking is so biased and so clouded with irrationality. Scientists aren’t supposed to be biased, you see… But Hoare clearly demonstrates that he is severely biased and, well, his rise in British academic circles is a blow to said circles’ prestige and credibility.

  4. @Αιρετικός ( Heretic )
    ΗΙ, I expected you’d comment more-or-less like this…🙂

    Hmmmm….
    It’s hard to say EXACTLY what’s going on with this guy; he seems to be a mixture of «diamonds and ashes» (hehe).

    Dr. Hoare IS an academic, with some truly worthwhile knowledge, in some areas of history; e.g. Bosnian history (about which he wrote one of three books). About Greek affairs, as well as about a few other issues, it appears he’s got certain things very very wrong; probably he was also… exposed (in the net) to the usual ultra-nationalist shit that made fanatics out of so many other people; (at least it MIGHT have made him an academic – hehe).
    …However:

    1) Although I have expressed (as you saw) very important and very strong criticisms, I am nevertheless also intrigued about some of Dr. Hoare’s other views; and I’m just NOT willing to shut down my perception of them, just because Dr. Hoare doesn’t appear to LIKE Greece at all… (or because he is «a little bit nationalistic» – it remains to be seen HOW and for WHOM anyway…)

    2) I told you before, I can talk to the worst enemy of Greece (or of… myself) absolutely calmly and without bias. I don’t even hate someone who hates Greece; I’m just feeling intrigued about WHY he or she has reached such a… remarkable position!🙂

    3) Moreover, I have «invited» Dr. Hoare (through several pingbacks) in this post; also commented in the other blog, which hosted his «guest-post», and so on…
    So I would urge you to remain calm, AVOIDING insults and flames that might destroy an important conversation, IF Dr. Hoare decides to pay a visit to this… humble blog!🙂

  5. P.S. my latest comment about Dr. Hoare and… Chomsky, in the «Srebrenica Genocide blog»:
    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html

    @owen,
    Thanks a lot for the detailed explanations.
    The deeper one digs for the truth and the more honestly one digs, the more… troubles one gets!🙂

    As a rule, I don’t trust terminology. I trust FACTS.
    And I accept everything you say about Srebrenica because the evidence shows it is a FACT.

    However, intellectual fights are going on, because e.g. Turkey doesn’t really want to call the Armenian genocide a «genocide», while the Armenians insist (and I tend to agree with them), etc.

    So…….
    I hear that BECAUSE Noam Chomsky supports someone ELSE who is a genocide denier, then… Chomsky must ALSO be a genocide denier!

    Well, since Dr. Hoare explicitly regards… Kemal Ataturk as one of the «TWO greatest men in the world who contributed most to human emancipation» (instead of a perpretator of genocides – which he WAS).
    …then, according to this logic, Dr. Hoare himself must be a… much bigger genocide denier than Chomsky! (hehe)

    I think we should stop «demonizing by implication».

    (Ah well, poor old Chomsky is COMPLETELY clueless, apparently, about the worst mistakes of Johnstone… tsk, tsk, tsk)

    ______
    The comment WAS approved; NOT answered yet. I then added a postscript:

    P.S. I have spent several hours reading Dr. Hoare’s FIERCE criticisms against Chomsky in various other web pages. I TEND to believe that there is some serious misunderstanding here, or various exaggerations, but I have NOT finished yet; only just started. This… mystery MUST be solved, my new BIG troubles have… only just begun.

    On the whole, I find this situation extremely disturbing and troublesome.

    I hope I have grown out of my… old tendency to idealize people, or the tendency to divide up the world into «goodies» and «baddies» (something Dr. Hoare DOES, from time to time – this is ALSO a fact I discovered).

    Therefore, this is even more serious and alarming: Chomsky is suddenly accused of all kinds of things that (IF valid) are ultimately disturbing indications that he MIGHT have been extremely wrong, absolutely obstinate, and so on.

    Well, even if this IS the case, I must also resist the tendency to attribute to Chomsky an «evil motive» (as Dr. Hoare so fiercely insists in so many ways). He MAY have been totally wrong, or totally misled, but I find it VERY hard to believe that he is an… evil man who rejoices in propagating conscious lies.

    Alas, I will NOT be surprised if even the world’s greatest, most sincere intellectuals, can ALSO be very wrong, deeply immersed in their own… VIRTUAL WORLD. This can be true of anyone, of course, INCLUDING Dr. Hoare.

    If Dr. Hoare is right, then humanity (not JUST Chomsky) is on the verge of a VERY SERIOUS capacity for absolutely TOTAL and DEVASTATING intellectual self-delusion.

    However, we need to learn one thing: To investigate with an open mind; rediscover WHAT is the truth, each one of us, uninfluenced and independent of ALL bias, ALL prejudice, even (and especially) our OWN prejudices.

    I rest my case (to investigate).

  6. Very recent DNA analysis results proved beyond doubt that the number of people slaughtered in Srebrenica by the Bosnian Serbs is AT LEAST 6186 (identified so far). This breaks to pieces allegations made by Ed Herman and the «Srebrenica Report» group, that the number of victims was much less (as low as… 200 people, in fact).

    However, this very serious VERIFIED mistake does NOT imply that ALL OTHER claims by the «Srebrenica Report» group are totally unfounded. Media bias in favour of Bosnians and against Serbs throughout the world (except in Greece and Serbia) WAS exceptionally strong, at the time. So, it is impossible to ignore completely ALL the claims made by the Srebrenica Report people, without detailed examination of EACH claim, one at a time.

    Nevertheless, any reader who wishes to examine the facts in detail, to form an INDEPENDENT and UNBIASED opinion about the war-crimes committed in the Bosnian war, experiences IMMENSE psychological pressure when told that Chomsky, Ed Herman and others who dispute some of the facts, are doing so because of EVIL INTENT as «genocide deniers». ANY detailed and open-minded research is sabotaged and debilitated (a priori) by such sweeping generalisations, demonizing certain people (including Chomsky) as deliberate «genocide deniers».

    It is highly probable that they were right about SOME things, while being wrong on certain OTHER things, e.g. about the number of victims (about which they were recently PROVED to be wrong).

    But the huge number of very different issues raised, is simply TOO large to be dismissed altogether as lies or «genocide denial».

    E.g. the following extract of a text in the Srebrenica Report site, seems to deserve VERY detailed honest answers, after EXTREMELY careful (re-)examination:

    Lies of omission were also clear in the attention given Bosnian Serb prison camps like Omarska, which the media focused on intensively and with indignation, when in fact the Muslims and Croats had very similar prison camps—at Celebici, Tarcin, Livno, Bradina, Odzak, and in the Zetra camp in Sarajevo, among other sites—[13] with roughly comparable numbers, facilities, and certainly no worse treatment of prisoners; [14] but in contrast with the Serbs, the Muslims and Croats hired competent PR firms and refused permission to inspect their facilities—and the already well-developed structure of bias made the media little interested in any but Serb camps.

    Wild allegations of Auschwitz-like conditions in Serb “concentration camps” were spread by “journalists of attachment” who lapped up propaganda handouts by Muslim and Croat officials and PR hirlings. Roy Gutman, who won a Pulitzer prize jointly with John Burns for Bosnia reporting in 1993, depended heavily on Croat and Muslim officials and witnesses with suspect credentials and implausible claims, and he was a major source of inflated, one-sided, and false “concentration camp” propaganda. [15] John Burns’ Pulitzer award was based on an extended interview with Boris Herak, a captured Bosnian Serb supplied to him and a Soros-funded film-maker by the Bosnian Muslims. Several years later Herak admitted that his extremely implausible confession had been coerced and that he had been forced to memorize many pages of lies. Two of his alleged victims also turned up alive in later years. In reporting on Herak, John Burns and the New York Times (and the Soros-funded film) suppressed the credibility-damaging fact that Herak had also accused former UNPROFOR commandant, Canadian General Lewis Mackenzie, of having raped young Muslim women at a Serb-run bordello. [16] These scandalous awards are symptomatic of the media bias that was already overwhelming in 1992 and 1993.

    In a recent development of interest, on a visit to the dying Alija Izetbegovic, Bernard Kouchner asked him about the Bosnian Serb concentration camps, whereupon Izetbegovic, surprisingly, admitted that these claims had been inflated with the aim of getting NATO to bomb the Serbs. [17] This important confession has not been mentioned in the U.S. or British mainstream media…

    source:
    http://www.srebrenica-report.com/politics.htm

    I repeat FIVE very SERIOUS claims made (in the text quoted) and… I URGE people like Mr. Hoare to COMMENT with FACTS on these claims, since as an INDEPENDENT and UNBIASED reader, I CANNOT make up my mind about the validity of these 5 SERIOUS claims without ABSOLUTELY verifiable EVIDENCE:

    1) Several years later Herak admitted that his extremely implausible confession had been coerced and that he had been forced to memorize many pages of lies.
    2) Two of his alleged victims also turned up alive in later years.
    3) In reporting on Herak, John Burns and the New York Times (and the Soros-funded film) suppressed the credibility-damaging fact that Herak had also accused former UNPROFOR commandant, Canadian General Lewis Mackenzie, of having raped young Muslim women at a Serb-run bordello. [16]
    4) In a recent development of interest, on a visit to the dying Alija Izetbegovic, Bernard Kouchner asked him about the Bosnian Serb concentration camps, whereupon Izetbegovic, surprisingly, admitted that these claims had been inflated with the aim of getting NATO to bomb the Serbs. [17]
    5) This important confession has not been mentioned in the U.S. or British mainstream media

    Sources (mentioned in the original text’s references’ section):

    9. The co-belligerency role was described by Peter Brock in “Dateline Yugoslavia: The Partisan Press,” Foreign Policy, Winter 1993-94. A forthcoming book by Brock, on Media Cleansing: UNcovering Yugoslavia’s Civil Wars, shows this partisanship in greater and effective detail. In his autobiography, U. S. Secretary of State James Baker says that he instructed his press secretary, Margaret Tutweiler to help Bosnian Foreign Minister Haris Silajzdic utilize the Western media to further the Bosnian Muslim cause, noting that he “had her talk to her contacts at the four television networks, the Washington Post and the New York Times.” James A. Baker, The Politics of Diplomacy (Putnam: 1995), pp. 643-4.
    […]
    10. As NATO PR spokesman Jamie Shea stated on May 16, 1999, when asked about NATO’s vulnerability to Tribunal charges, he was not worried. The prosecutor, he said, will start her investigation “because we will allow her to.” Further, “NATO countries are those that have provided the finance,” and on the need to build a second chamber “so that prosecutions can be speeded up…we and the Tribunal are all one on this, we want to see war criminals brought to justice.” http://www.nato.int/kosovo/press/p990516b.htm
    See Michael Mandel, How America Gets Away With Murder (London: Pluto, 2004), chaps. 4-5; Edward Herman, “The Milosevic Trial, Part 1,” Z Magazine, April 2002.
    11. See Politics of War Crimes, chap. 7, Bogdanich, “UN Report on Srebrenica-A distorted Picture of Events.”
    12. Raymond K. Kent, “Contextualizing Hate: The Hague Tribunal, the Clinton Administration and the Serbs,” Dialogue (Paris), v. 5, no. 20, December, 1996 (as posted to the Emperor’s Clothes website, http://www.emperors-clothes.com/misc/kent.htm ).
    13. Carl Savitch, “Celebici,” http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/047.shtml.
    14. It would be hard to surpass the savagery of the Bosnian Muslims at the Celebici camp, described in ibid. See also, Diana Johnstone, Fools’ Crusade (Pluto: 2002), pp. 71-72.
    15. See the two works by Peter Brock, note 9 above; also Johnstone, Fools’ Crusade, pp. 70-83.
    16. For details and citations see Brock’s article and book (note 9 above).
    17. Bernard Kouchner, Les Guerriers de la Paix (Paris: Grasset, 2004), pp. 372-4.

    So?…

    -I WANT TO SEE DETAILED EVIDENCE, REFUTING EVERY SINGLE ONE of these CLAIMS and EVERY SINGLE ONE of all the SOURCES / REFERENCES.

    To say the least,
    I will NOT play the Mind-Game of DISMISSING EVERYTHING
    (as «Genocide Denial» a priori).

    ___________
    P.S. IT ALSO looks like…
    Bernard Kouchner is («by implication») ALSO a «genocide denier»

    HOW come… the FRENCH GOVERNMENT has NOT issued an OFFICIAL PROTEST about this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Kouchner

    Bernard Kouchner (born 1 November 1939 in Avignon) is a French politician, diplomat, and doctor. He is co-founder of Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) — also known as Doctors Without Borders — and Doctors of the World. He is currently the French Minister of Foreign and European Affairs in the right-wing Fillon government, although he was considered in the past to be a center-left politician.

  7. Omadeon, you’re asking why the French government hasn’t issued a protest against Mr. Hoare’s implication that Bernard Kouchner is among the «genocide deniers». Perhaps they don’t think his opinion and his credibility can qualify him as someone worth answering to.

  8. @Αιρετικός

    Well, this IS possible…

    O.T.O.H. it may also be the case that Dr. Hoare himself is consciously trying NOT to mention Kouchner among his big black list of «genocide deniers»… (so as to avoid protests by Kouchner or by the French government).

    I reached my own conclusion «by implication», following Dr. Hoare’s own logic of… guilt by association, a well-known… LOGIC FALLACY!🙂
    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/guilt-by-association/
    I.e. the main reason Chomsky was labeled a «genocide denier» is his… bad company; people he associates with (and/or supports) who have been already labeled likewise.
    Applying the same «logic» to Kouchner, he must be another «genocide denier».

    Moreover, Kouchner’s testimony about the last words of the dying Izetbekovitch (as you saw) seriously undermines the credibility of ALL such sweeping generalisations, so it is never mentioned by Hoare (in all the documents denouncing Chomsky et.al).

    This complicated riddle has MANY facets. FEW people can be regarded as 100% accurate.
    E.g.
    Chomsky DID make mistakes, but NOT sufficient to justify the label «genocide denier». E.g. he believed and trusted certain people, who have been proved wrong; this is a fact I verified. (I will explain it later on…)

    Here is another clear example of bias (this time by the «Srebrenica Report» people – the «genocide deniers»):

    – The web page I mentioned alleges that Boris Herak (a self-confessed Serb murderer and rapist who nevertheless retracted his own confession after the war and said he was tortured to confess) was also THE source of the rape-accusations against U.N.’s Lewis MacKenzie (that «MacKenzie had raped Bosnian women prisoners offered to him as a ‘gift’ by the Serbs»). Therefore (since Boris Herak was proved unreliable for other reasons – his retraction of his entire confession in 1996, etc) it is assumed to be automatically true that MacKenzie was innocent.
    However, the same web page FAILS to RECOGNIZE all the OTHER testimonies against MacKenzie, as well as his previous bad record, as a denier of… rapes inside the Canadian military (where he served) long before the Bosnian war. I gave links to all this, in a previous post. Here is a new one:
    http://www.bosnjaci.net/prilog.php?pid=16844

    Well, from what I’ve read SO FAR, I tend to conclude that there WERE some people who we can safely regard as «genocide deniers» (or more generally war-crime deniers) but… NOT Chomsky (and a few other «targets» of Dr. Hoare).

    MacKenzie CERTAINLY seems to be an… asshole AND a rapist, despite his military distinctions in the Canadian Army. He is also a pro-Serb spokesman, who provably received money (14000 dollars I believe) for a speech in favour of the Serbs. (But this didn’t stop… naive Greeks from mentioning him as THE most authoritative source about the Srebrenica massacre in the Greek version of wikipedia; even though e.g. his death-toll figures were PROVED to be TOTALLY WRONG; JUST like those of Ed Herman and Diane Johnstone – ALL wrong).

    So you see… there are LIES, SLANDER, propaganda and serious MISTAKES, all over the place…

  9. There is a Serb blog which tries to present the «other side of the story». I am really NOT sure about its validity yet, but if anyone wants to try reading it WITH CAUTION, here it is:
    http://www.real-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/

    Meanwhile,
    Boris Herak is a Bosnian Serb soldier who «casually and unremorsefully confessed to the rape-murder of more than 18 Muslim women and the execution of more than 230 civilians of Bosnia and Herzegovina».
    However, he also retracted his confession in 1996, after the end of the war, claiming he was beaten up, tortured and threatened that he (and his father) would be killed if he didn’t confess. His story is in:
    http://www.srpska-mreza.com/WarCrime/Herak1.html

    The retraction of his confession is in the second half of the page:
    http://www.srpska-mreza.com/WarCrime/Herak2.html
    However, both these pages are loaded with fanatical, highly emotional bias, making them difficult to read impartially. Their style of expression is full of hate and aggressive lashing out against «the conspiracy of the west against Serbia». This style is occasionally infuriating, with a diminishing credibility:
    I mean…. -for a start- MANY Serbian war-crimes HAVE been committed, so… whether or not ONE particular soldier was actually innocent and/or was beaten up (by his Muslim captors) to confess, this is ultimately NOT so significant. This kind of thing DOES happen, in a savage war like this, but it does NOT invalidate all the OTHER war-crimes, where Bosnian Serb perpetrators were convicted after massive REAL evidence.

    So, the Serbian site that hosts the story of Boris Hasek behaves as if his case was the ONLY case; as if his innocence was PROVED and as if it Implies EVERY other Serb accused of war crimes was ALSO innocent. I find this attitude infuriatingly arrogant, as well as potentially full of revolting lies…

  10. A VERY serious logic error became apparent, as regards the alleged invalidity of Boris Herak’s testimony against general Lews MacKenzie:

    – HOW could he be «instructed», by Bosnian muslims or (even less) by NATO / U.N. authorities to… create a false testimony against someone whose «genocide denial» took place several years LATER?

    i.e.
    If the accusations against MacKenzie were «manufactured», in order to destroy the credibility of his pro-Serb views about the Srebrenica massacre, then… HOW and WHY were these accusations made in 1992/1993, 2 years BEFORE the Srebrenica massacre?

    Moreover -as I said- Boris Herak’s testimony was NOT the only one, about MacKenzie’s guilt of participation in the rape of captured Bosnian women…
    All this is part of the problematic (probably false) material in the Srebrenica Report «revisionist» site; However, there exist OTHER types of material, such as Kouchner’s account of what Izetbekovic said before his death, which is MOST PROBABLY valid, and (surprise-surprise)… this is the type of material NEVER discussed by the «anti-revisionist» camp…

    UPDATE: After examining all the evidence, I TEND to believe (as more probable) that Boris Herak WAS a war-criminal and that his confession DID contain facts, PROBABLY mixed with fiction (maybe) but nevertheless essentially true; I also believe it was disastrous if he was beaten up by Bosnian prison-guards (etc) since such torture (if it took place) automatically invalidates his testimony; this is also one of the reasons torture should be ALWAYS ILLEGAL…

  11. Now… The extreme bias of Dr. Hoare against Noam Chomsky and his fierce need to label him a «genocide denier» shows through in some of what he wrote in:
    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html

    e.g.

    …Chomsky then goes on to compare the Serb behaviour favourably with that of the Americans in Fallujah: ‘Well, with Fallujah, the US didn’t truck out the women and children, it bombed them out.’ Chomsky does not mention the thousands of Bosnian women and children raped and murdered by Serb forces in other parts of Bosnia; nor those blown to bits by the Serb shelling of Sarajevo and other Bosnian towns, choosing instead to focus on the sparing of the women and children of Srebrenica.

    True, but… (on the other hand) Chomsky’s «what about Fallujah» argument, here, is matched by ANOTHER similar argument «what about the OTHER women and children killed/raped in Bosnia» (by Dr. Hoare).
    Dr. Hoare’s logic here is «Tit-for-tat», but it PROVES NOTHING about Chomsky, who did NOT deny that women and children were killed or raped by the Serbs ELSEWHERE in Bosnia…

    Chomsky’s habit of «placing everything under a wider context of imperialist violence» may seem annoying to some people (like Dr. Hoare), but it DOES NOT constitute denial of any genocide or massacre. If he thought there have been WORSE massacres than Srebrenica, this is his right; moreover, his CRITERION (for this comparison) was -essentially- logically CORRECT, i.e.

    -It is TRUE that EVERYONE in Fallujah (including women and children) was exterminated by American troops and… it is also, equally TRUE, that in Srebrenica (most of) the women and children were sent (by bus) to safer (muslim) areas.

    Chomsky is also charged with complicity (with the genocide deniers) because he did not mention the NUMBER of those (men) who were killed in Srebrenica.

    Well, people like MacKenzie did specify actual estimates, which -years later- were proved to be false (too low). Chomsky, instead, remained silent, which was his RIGHT; It still does NOT mean he agreed with them, or that he was a genocide denier for NOT specifying a number of victims (about which he didn’t have conclusive evidence, AT THE TIME).

    Johnstone, too, makes much of this: ‘one thing should be obvious: one does not commit ‘genocide’ by sparing women and children’.

    Well, this IS a powerful argument (by Johnstone); I plunged into the refutation of this argument (another post in the Srebrenica genocide blog – HERE) but I still DON’T feel 100% convinced by the refutation, which is clearly NOT obvious to casual readers or beginners and it certainly wasn’t obvious to people like Johnstone. E.g. one argument used against Johnstone’s view is that there was INTENT to kill women and children as well, but that this was not implemented because of fears of retribution (and U.N. presence in the area). This is quite possible, but it is also possible (Chomsky’s view) that Mladic and his soldiers -above all- took a savage revenge on all the men (for muslim atrocities, however less), but didn’t care much about the women and children, since they were not potential soldiers nor a threat to Serbian territories, being expelled to the muslim parts of Bosnia. (I’d say BOTH cases are equally probable).

    In fact, the Nazis began the systematic extermination of Jewish adult males in the USSR in 1941 before they began the systematic extermination of Jewish women and children, and the Nazis, unlike the Serb forces a half century later, were not being restrained by the democratic Western media.

    -A VERY erroneous analogy, for several reasons: Clearly, the nazis only POSTPONED the death of Jewish women and children. They were NOT (as in Srebrenica) expelled to safe areas, but merely kept captive (or surrounded) by Nazi troops. There were NO «free Jewish areas» where they could go (like muslim areas of Bosnia), and they were NOT allowed to leave their homes (unless they were trasported to OTHER nazi-controlled areas). Therefore, the analogy is FALSE.

  12. I was thinking – and you may call this an aphorism, but it actually IS reasonable – that Mr. Hoare himself discredits his views and his work by choosing (?) the «Attila» nickname or middle name. This choice, by and in itself, shows a certain attitude towards certain issues (human rights, among them). Don’t forget that the name «Attila» has been connected with barbarity and slaughter against civilians…

  13. Well, you’re absolutely right; in fact what you said is something Dr. Hoare should think about carefully.

    I believe his parents gave him this middle name, although it is equally possible that he gave this name to himself, as an internet-poster, since he began posting without his first name, as «Attila Hoare»

    UPDATE:
    A LETTER OF APOLOGY was sent to Dr. Hoare, after receiving from him a polite letter of complaint, about this misunderstanding; I had simply NO IDEA that «Attila» IS a valid name, in many countires; not just Turkey. And «Attila» happens to be his REAL middle name.

    There are two possiblities:
    1) If he created the «Attila» name himself, it’s like confessing an incomprehensibly pro-Turkish and anti-Greek identity in the net.
    2) If his parents gave him this name, then… it was UNWISE of him to promote it; he ought to have signed his posts using the name «Marko Hoare» to AVOID accusations of pro-Turkish, anti-Greek bias (not to mention the savagery of Attila the Hun -hehe)….

    UPDATE: SEE CORRECTIONS (and apologies) above.

    I still find his work -as I said- a «mixture of diamonds and ashes». He can become very useful as an «antidote» e.g. to fanatical Serb propagandists, since his knowledge of the Bosnian war and Bosnian affairs is outstanding. He can also -however- become COMPLETELY USELESS (correction: he can be negative) when he indulges in his own bias and fanaticism, which shows through his savage campaign against Chomsky, as well as in his complete inability to understand the ESSENCE of the REAL «name dispute» between Greece and FYROM, where he assumes every Greek is… Papathemelis!🙂

    I noticed that… my own blog’s statistics have DROPPED dramatically ever since I started meticulously analysing Dr. Hoare’s work and ideological… vices; it’s probably because of using English of course. It’s also probable that MANY people find such painstaking intellectual meticulousness boring; they NEED their «food», which is EASY categorisations like «he’s an enemy of Greece so screw him» or «he’s a friend of Greece, let’s worship him». NEITHER is advisable, in general, of course!🙂

    On the contrary, we can amuse ourselves delightfully analysing EVERYTHING in the Bosnian war and in Dr. Hoare’s work with an open mind and adherence to cool rationalism; I feel the benefits in my own mind already!🙂

  14. P.S. This story unfolds in a way that I NO LONGER try to predict (even less to control); all the fallacies, propaganda lies and mistakes of ALL sides and EVERY individual are gradually exposed.

    E.g. Kouchner, who I believe WAS truthful in his book about the dying Izetbekovic (back in 2004)… was later on accused that… he covered-up the scandal of Albanian UCK organ-trafficking (a topic of another post, in this blog):
    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2009/08/18/albania-vetoes-and-blocks-european-probe-on-organ-harvesting/
    HOWEVER, It is NOT certain -after all- that Kouchner was «covering up» the organ-trafficking scandal, since ALL the web-pages I found alleging this are either extreme right-wing (including «stormfront.org» neonazis) or else… idiotic (pro-)Serb bloggers, who COPY INFORMATION from neonazi blogs (EXACTLY LIKE our own «Greek Alert» blog, copying and propagating Greek neonazi posts, like one that praised fascist dictator Metaxas). (see «PS 2«)

    Meanwhile, about Lewis MacKenzie, I started collecting links in
    http://delicious.com/omadeon/MacKenzie
    His previous BAD RECORD is here:
    http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0011733
    (a 1987 military rape-scandal where he tried to white-wash rapists in the Canadian army)
    The most informative web-page with evidence against him as regards Bosnia is here:
    http://www.geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/english/general_lewis_mackenzie.html
    Although it’s a Bosnian page (naturally biased), I cross-verified most of the facts it contains; some of them more general evidence about the bad behaviour of the Canadian military (including rapes and alcoholism)…

    P.S.2 a GREEK NOTE (as an exception) about FASCIST propaganda by Greek so-called «patriotic» blogs:
    “άνεμος” writes:
    http://naftilos.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_05.html

    …ένα ακόμη “καρμπόν”, Εδώ:
    Πατριωτικός Ελληνικός Σύνδεσμος (Χρυσή Αυγή) Για την επέτειο της 4ης Αυγούστου 1936
    http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2009/08/04/%cf%80%ce%b1%cf%84%cf%81%ce%b9%cf%89%cf%84%ce%b9%ce%ba%cf%8c%cf%82-%ce%b5%ce%bb%ce%bb%ce%b7%ce%bd%ce%b9%ce%ba%cf%8c%cf%82-%cf%83%cf%8d%ce%bd%ce%b4%ce%b5%cf%83%ce%bc%ce%bf%cf%82-%ce%b3%ce%b9%ce%b1-2/
    Κι εδώ:Για την επέτειο της 4ης Αυγούστου 1936
    http://www.greekalert.com/2009/08/4-1936.html
    όπου το κείμενο καταλήγει:

    Όσο για κάποιους μικρούς κι ανάξιους του να λέγονται Έλληνες και οι οποίοι κατηγορούν τον Ιωάννη Μεταξά ως φασίστα και το καθεστώς του ως φασιστικό, εμείς τους απαντούμε ότι στην Ελλάδα ουδέποτε επικράτησε ο Φασισμός. Κι αυτό γιατί αν ποτέ επικρατήσει ,να είναι σίγουροι ότι θα το καταλάβουν και θα το νοιώσουν καλά στο πετσί τους…
    ΖΗΤΩ Η 4η ΑΥΓΟΥΣΤΟΥ-ΖΗΤΩ Ο ΙΩΑΝΝΗΣ ΜΕΤΑΞΑΣ

    Μάλλον θάπρεπε να ονομάζεται “Greek Fascist Alert”, αντί για “Greek Alert”

  15. The site http://de-construct.net/e-zine/
    is of course BIASED (very pro-Serb and also «anti New World Order»); however it does contain useful facts and links. E.g. the very recent news:
    http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=7504

    American Official Shields Bosnian Muslim Generals from War Crimes Trial

    As long as Bosnia’s War Crimes Prosecution is dominated by David Schwendiman [PDF], not a single Bosnian Muslim general will find himself in the docket, regardless of the evidence proving their responsibility for war crimes committed by the Bosnian Muslim forces against the Serb population,” Dževad Galijašević, member of the South-Eastern Europe’s Expert Team for the War Against Terrorism and Organized Crime, told Banja Luka daily Fokus.

    Born into the Muslim faith, former mayor of Maglaj Municipality in Bosnia and Herzegovina Galijašević is one of the very few Bosnian Muslims willing to openly speak about the wide scale war crimes committed by Izetbegović’s troops in former Yugoslavia…

    _______
    If ANY reader is interested in exercising his/her ability to REASON, or wishes to TEST one’s… SANITY of mind, I recommend reading the following… PILE OF BULLSHIT:
    http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=6082
    (in the aforementioned Serb blog)…
    …about a COMPLETE idiot (a paranoid with a… high I.Q.) called Alexander Dorin, who has written a book FULL of PROVED lies – in Serbian,
    IGNORING the FACTS, e.g. reported in:
    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2009/07/dna-results-reveal-6186-srebrenica.html

    Comments in the former blog-post ( http://de-construct.net/e-zine/?p=6082 ) also indicate the alarming degree of SERBIAN LUNACY. We’d better study it VERY carefully in Greece, just in case we… flip out in similar ways…

    ________
    Meanwhile, browsing through google results about Alexander Dorin, I realize that there are VERY FEW criticisms, against his monstrous production of…. TOTAL BULLSHIT, in a multitude of books, probably… dangerous for one’s Sanity of Mind:
    http://www.alexander-dorin.ch/literatur/
    The guy should be awarded a Nobel Prize for Intellectual Madness and History Falsification; HE is the REAL «Genocide Denier» about the Bosnian war, that Bosnians (and Mr. Hoare) should criticize more, instead of wasting time writing bullshit against the… innocent (but slightly obstinate) poor old Chomsky!🙂

  16. About Noam Chomsky now…

    I do NOT deny that he ALSO made some big mistakes, apparently, mistakes of opinion that are typical symptoms of… OLD AGE and a powerful but… occasionally obstinate Mind.

    The BEST critique of Chomsky I found (as regards Bosnia), which -however- does NOT label him a «genocide denier» but criticises rationally and factually his mistakes of opinion about Bosnia and all the other people (Ed Herman et.al.) whose views he wrongly endorsed, is
    http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/a_simple_request/
    («A simple request», by Michael Bérubé
    -IMHO a great post, sprinkled with extremely useful links…)

    _________
    And now a quote from a book I have, «Thinking about Yugoslavia», by Sabrina Ramet, p.271:

    …In August 1991, as the Yugoslav People’s Army and Serb paramilitaries were expelling local Croat civilians from Banija and Baranja, and laying siege to Vukovar and Dubrovnik, and as the Milosevic regime escalated the persecution of Albanians in Kosovo, and as Karadzic and Milosevic prepared to bring the war to Bosnia by arming Serb civilians in that republic, the Serbian Church’s organ Glasnik offered an inverted picture, alleging that

    Once again the Serbian nation is on the cross in Kosovo-Metohija and in Dalmatia and in the Krajina and in Slavonia and in Banija, Lika, Kordun, Srem, Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is a nation which has gotten accustomed to carrying a cross, because we are condemned to carry this cross. In this hour we ask God to give us the strength to carry our cross with dignity, as we have carried it in the past. And in order to say other than what the wise Jewess [Golda Meir] said to the malicious and aggressive Muslims: ‘Forgive us for killing you, but we cannot forgive you if you force us to kill you.’

    But the Church’s nationalist rhetoric was not just the by-product of absent- mindedness, according to Milorad Tomanic, who suggests that the Serbian Orthodox Church nurtured territorial pretensions vis-a-vis Croatia which «were almost identical with the demands of certain Serbian political figures such as, for example, Vojislav Seselj and Vuk Draskovic». The nationalist neurosis is still alive and well in Serbia and is manifested in such things as expressions of outrage in the parliament that Serbian state television had shown (on 11 July 2001) a BBC documentary concerning the Srebrenica massacre, or the introduction of new history textbooks in the elementary schools in autumn 2001 in which Draza Mihailovic, the Second World War-era Serbian collaborator with the Italian fascists, is whitewashed and in which there is no mention of Milosevic and no hint that any Serbs might have had any responsibility for any of the misfortunes of the past decade.
    Or again, in summer 2001, the Serbian government announced that catechism instruction would be introduced into primary and secondary schools in the autumn.

    The author, SABRINA P. RAMET is a Professor of Political Science at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU), Trondheim, Norway, and a Senior Associate at the Centre for the Study of Civil War, PRIO. She is the author of nine books, including Balkan Babel: The Disintegration of Yugoslavia from the Death of Tito to the Fall of Milosevic *(4th edn, 2002).

  17. IMPORTANT… PERSONAL NEWS:

    Dr. Hoare has been OFFICIALLY invited to speak out here, in this blog, expressing himself freely, after he… DEMONISED… me as…
    (yet) «ANOTHER VULGAR CHAUVINIST WITH A BLOG»
    !!!!!
    Well, I invited him here to speak out, without censorship; as well as…
    NO «retaliation» on MY part (for this RATHER extreme attack).

    Dr. Hoare’s full text is this:

    Daniel, Owen,
    Omadeon is a Greek nationalist and chauvinist who is currently attacking me on his blog for the crime of having a ‘Turkish‘ name (Attila).

    Omadeon says:

    ‘If his parents gave him this name, then… it was UNWISE of him to promote it; he ought to have signed his posts using the name “Marko Hoare” to AVOID accusations of pro-Turkish, anti-Greek bias (not to mention the savagery of Attila the Hun -hehe)’

    In other words, he thinks that people who have ‘Turkish’ names should change them, to make themselves sound less Turkish – a proposed ethnic purification. I very much doubt he brings up the ‘savagery of Alexander the Great’ when debating with people called Alexander.

    He also puts quotation marks around ‘Macedonia’ and ‘Macedonian’ when referring to the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian nation. Or else he uses derogatory terms such as ‘Slavo-Albanian Macedonia‘.

    I initially thought he was a moderate Greek nationalist with whom it might be possible to have a civilised debate. But on closer inspection, he’s just another vulgar chauvinist with a blog.

    URL: http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html#1381796438907018110

    Wow! Hmmmm… Dr. Hoare said (about me):

    «I very much doubt he brings up the ‘savagery of Alexander the Great‘ when debating with people called Alexander…»

    My answer (NOW): – ON THE CONTRARY, I ALWAYS bring it up! 😆
    HOW on earth could I miss… such a BIG laugh? !!!
    Well, here is the PROOF; in my… post:🙂
    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2008/04/05/exposing-big-alex-the-ancient-greek-psychopath-the-avatar-of-fyroms-virtual-reality-history/
    (about BIG ALEX the… ancient Psychopath !!!)

    Meanwhile, my favourite political comedy is… BORAT! 😆

    ______
    Well,
    I answered Dr. Hoare’s text, commenting as follows (at any moment, it will also become visible, after moderators’ approval):

    Dr. Hoare,

    With respect, I think you have completely misunderstood what I said in my blog, about your middle name.

    First of all, I did NOT say you should… literally change your middle name; secondly I interpreted your middle name «Attila» (perhaps wrongly – NOT knowing you) as signifying a certain nationalistic CONTENT or INTENT, which I also found… puzzling because «Attila» is associated with war-crimes, as well as a historical leader of invasions in Europe – or not?

    Now, I am really very very sorry, if this has offended you, and (for compensation) I would encourage you to protest as strongly as you like, in my own blog, about this. I will NOT argue if this has appeared offensive to you; if it IS really your REAL name (and not an internet-knickname for… flame-wars as I had suspected) I apologize. What else can I say? Greek humour is NOT always good…

    However, I would also suggest you check out my views again, in calmness; I consider it a grossly slanderous, irrational demonisation, to be labeled a «Greek nationalist»!!!

    After all, the whole point of my creative dialog here, with Owen, and my only small disagreement with him (and you), is my objection to the use of demonizing labels like «genocide denier» to people who do NOT really deserve them. Equally, the use of slanderous labels like «nationalist» for someone like me who spent a LOT of time fighting nationalism (in my own country).

    Well, why don’t you come over to my blog, criticize me AS FIERCELY as you wish, presenting your views, or even… insult me? I give you my WORD OF HONOUR that you can do this freely without ANY censorship (and without ANY demonising «retaliation» on my part).

    With… anti-nationalist Appreciation, all the best to you, Dr. Hoare!

    – – –
    […] (NOTE: A small «P.S.» was lost while copying)
    – – –

    P.S.2 What’s wrong with calling Macedonia «Slavo-Albanian»? Does it not consist of Macedonian Slavs and Macedonian Albanians, mostly? (not to mention 2.5 million non-Slavic, ethnic-Greek Macedonians in Greece)?

    Dr. Hoare, you CAN do much better than this. You sound like an extreme anti-Greek (or pro-Macedonian) nationalist!

    Ah well… (sigh) There are OFFICIAL negotiations between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, about the «name dispute», and quite frankly (as an anti-nationalist) I don’t care WHAT name is chosen, provided it IS accepted by **both** sides. The logical implication of your demonisation (of me) is that… ALL international negotiations should stop, that (all) Greeks are chauvinistic nationalists and that the other side’s nationalism is fine; Well, THIS IS NOT international cooperation, nor «anti-nationalism»: it’s just bias, in favour of ONLY ONE side...

    ______
    …and I really thinknobody in the world could be.. more polite than THIS,
    …if one was in my position !!
    :mrgreen:

  18. Omadeon, the mere fact that Mr. Hoare labeled you a «chauvinist» and a «nationalist» proves – beyond ANY reasonable doubt – one of the following:

    1. He is functionally illiterate, because (a) he couldn’t find on your blog ANYTHING about Alexander’s brutalities (which were comparable to what his era had to give – and perhaps he was less violent than most warlords, as he wanted to build a state instead of just kill and pillage), (b) he attributed MY comment to you, (c) he was UNABLE to find your protests about the travesty trial which deemed neo-nazi author Costas Plevris innocent of violating Greece’s anti-racist legislation.

    2. He is seriously prejudiced and, thus, will not hesitate to spew lies against anyone who disagrees with his views.

    Whatever the case, it is clear that Mr. Hoare does not satisfy any criteria for his inclusion in the academia; he’s just another Martin Bernal, one might say, but things in Hoare’s case are actually much worse: he’s a militant person, given to a specific faction’s propaganda, which he serves very loyally. Academics, by definition, are scientists – and they don’t serve any propaganda. Instead, they are AGAINST all propagandas – again, BY DEFINITION. Now, how would Lenin call someone like Mr. Hoare? Ah yes: A «useful idiot».

    Furthermore, an academic BY DEFINITION refuses to stoop to the bog-level of becoming a «useful idiot», a tool for a nationalist, irredentist propaganda. And the mere fact that a British university lets Mr. Hoare, with his patently biased, militant, one-sided views on history and politics, distort and mangle the academic tuition process shows that Britain’s academic system is highly overrated.

    At any rate, by calling you a «vulgar nationalist», Mr. Hoare proves that he’s an academic only by name (and, therefore, with his actions and words, a disgrace to the international academic world) and that he’s, well, a joke of poor taste. I don’t think I need to comment any further on this guy – his words and his actions speak for themselves and there’s no reason to give him any more credibility than what he already has, i.e. NONE.

  19. @Airetikos

    My friend, I painstakingly and CALMLY dealt with all this… pile of slander AS IF it was a mistake, giving Mr. Hoare a FAIR and UNIQUE opportunity to REALIZE his mistake and start… UNDERSTANDING another point of view, which is NOT nationalistic at all, but is simply DIFFERENT than his own.

    I think that… even though my personal style of expression is NOT always polite (on the contrary, I CAN speak badly at times)… I dealt with Dr. Hoare AS POLITELY AS POSSIBLE, and I will CONTINUE to deal with him like this.

    However, if he doesn’t respond to my PLEA of PEACE, I will HAVE to deal with the SLANDER against me, which (as you know) is EXTREMELY CONTAGIOUS throughout the internet.
    I am afraid that he DOES have a good reputation, in several non-Greek blogs, and that such slander CAN be damaging for me personally. On the other hand (in his case), I see NO DAMAGE to him AT ALL, in my… frivolous, joking «criticism» of his middle name.

    In fact I still feel GENUINELY PUZZLED about this middle name, because… when I looked up «Attila» in Wikipedia,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila
    NOTHING came up with ANY «Turkish use» or any «Turkish connection». I quite frankly STILL DO NOT understand the purpose of using this name, for one’s kids, or for one’s self as a knickname, UNLESS it’s a CHAUVINISTIC act, reminding us of the SAVAGERY of Attila the Hun AS WELL AS the bloody invasion of Turkey in Cyprus (and the ETHNIC CLEANSING of THOUSANDS of Greek Cypriots). Thus, my joke about his name was FAR FROM chauvinistic, NOR did it imply ANYTHING LIKE a suggestion to «change the name» in the context of «ETHNIC PURIFICATION» (as he slanderously alleged).

    On the contrary, my POSITIVE intent was CLEARLY to… PROTECT this guy from QUITE OBVIOUS, QUITE NEGATIVE, CHAUVINISTIC Turkish connotations. After all, NOT ALL Greeks can «swallow» easily such a name, without imagining they are dealing with a… Turkish chauvinist.

    Well, I still give Dr. Hoare the benefit of the doubt. E.g. if he felt OFFENDED, I ALREADY apologized, since NOBODY should feel shame for ANY personal name. Other than this, I deal with Dr. Hoare «by the book», AS POLITELY AS I CAN.

  20. Moreover,
    I think it is ALSO quite slanderous to allege that ANYONE who disagrees with FYROM about its… EXCLUSIVE COPYRIGHT as regards «Macedonia», is… automatically a racist or a chauvinist who insults the «Macedonian nation».

    NOR is «Slavo-Albanian» as an adjective, a «derogatory term» (as he said). It is a FACTUAL ethnic term, which would ALSO be seen positively by FYROM’s ALBANIAN citizens – in OPPOSITION to their government’s self-denying «Archaeo-Macedonist» ULTRA-Nationalism.

    The use of QUOTATION MARKS (For «Macedonia») was an exercise in FAIRNESS, since the «name dispute» has NOT YET been resolved, and since there are MORE THAN 2.5 million ETHNIC-GREEK MACEDONIANS who (rightly or wrongly) FEEL OFFENDED by the exclusive use of the term «Macedonia» by a neighbouring country.

    Dr. Hoare should APOLOGIZE to GREEK PEOPLE, much more than apologize to me, for this grossly slanderous injustice (of his statements).

    DEMONISING… EVERY GREEK PERSON can HARDLY be regarded as «antiracist».

    P.S. If Dr. Hoare ALSO demeans and slanders me personally, as an extreme «Greek chauvinist» who is «incapable of civilized debate», he ALSO ought to come HERE and accept my OFFER of CIVILISED DEBATE. Otherwise, this is a LIE. ALL kinds of VERY civilised debates took place in THIS blog; and there is ALSO a constant bulk of NATIONALIST SPAM and HARRASSMENT almost EVERY DAY, sent over here by REAL Greek Nationalists (blocked by moderation…)
    -e.g. one Nationalist troll, telling me to «go wash with JEWISH SOAP«.

    ______
    P.S.2 From his statements, Dr. Hoare ALSO appears to be offering his… UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT to the ULTRA-NATIONALIST FICTION of the «Ancient Macedonian descent» of FYROM’s Slav citizens.

    However, THIS «P.S.2» ends my complaints. I STILL invite him to TALK, in civilised debate; not to be… tried or condemned !!!🙂

  21. Why does Hoare find the term «Slavo-Albanian» offensive? FYROM’s population is a mixture of Slavs (Yugoslavs and Bulgarians) and Albanians.

    And as for his claim that you are an extreme nationalist, this goes to prove, beyond ANY doubt, that he’s a liar and a slanderer who can’t (and shouldn’t) be taken seriously at all. Because an academic who willingly SLANDERS someone is entirely undeserving of the title. Yes, Mr. Hoare is a slanderer, end of story.

    And if he has ANY trace element of decency and dignity in him (which I highly doubt now), he ought to eat humble pie, apologize and RETRACT his statements about you.

  22. Well, I hope so….

    Unfortunately, in HIS case I am a pessimist;
    my comments STILL have not been approved by moderation (in the other blog).
    IF my comments don’t appear, or IF they let him have «the final word», then he is simply capitalising on his GOOD reputation, among people who DON’T HAVE the TIME or the inclination to… check me out (i.e. it’s «HIS word against mine»).

    I am NOT so self-inflated or egotistic to ASSUME that I am always regarded, «by default», as «free of nationalism». It takes EFFORT to prove this; and the function of net-slander is to DISCOURAGE PEOPLE from making the EFFORT to INVESTIGATE (by believing the DEMONISERS)…

  23. And you know what? I used to consider Victor Davis Hanson an excellent historian – until he teamed up with Dubya and started kissing the neocons’ asses on the issue of the Iraq War. It takes a long time and great effort to build a good reputation; and you need to slip out only ONCE to ruin this reputation you built.

    Hoare enjoys an – undeserved – reputation. He does have some valid points, but he is terribly biased (which makes him anything BUT a historian; I would be tremendously interested to read what Vasko Gligorijevic would have to say about Hoare) and promotes nationalism (while hypocritically accusing others of the same sin – «pot, let me introduce you to kettle» – and even going as far as to SLANDER a devout anti-nationalist and anti-racist), which does nothing to serve his credibility. He reminds me of all those snobby British car «journalists» who write insane inaccuracies, spice them up with smart-ass puns and wordplays and the general public (which usually knows nothing on the subject) just because what is served to them is served in a fancy, «smarter than thou» package, although it is completely (or mostly) inaccurate and, more often than not, paid for by certain German car manufacturers. I don’t feel any obligation to be polite to Mr. Hoare, so I wouldn’t hesitate at all to call him Gruevsky’s lackey – and he’s quite lucky I’m not exploiting my command of the English language to make an immeasurably rude, but entirely fitting wordplay on his surname to replace the word «lackey» with.

  24. P.S.

    FYROM’s population is a mixture of Slavs (Yugoslavs and Bulgarians) and Albanians.

    About «Yugoslavs and Bulgarians», I do NOT know this for sure; undoubtedly, there is strong kinship between Slav-Macedonians and Bulgarians, which is undeniable. On the other hand I am NOT a nationalist, so from my point of view, the Slavic people of FYROM have a RIGHT to think of themselves ALSO as «Macedonian». PROVIDED that they ALSO accept the existence of OTHER Macedonians, e.g. Greek Macedonians…

  25. @Airetikos
    I agree with your last comment; especially the fact that…

    It takes a long time and great effort to build a good reputation; and you need to slip out only ONCE to ruin this reputation you built.

    EXACTLY; and I think I am… SAVING Dr. Hoare’s reputation, by pointing out his mistakes. (He didn’t give a DAMN about mine, needless to say…)🙂

  26. I sent a comment to that blog. I’m also posting it here as well, JUST IN CASE:

    Mr. Hoare is capitalizing on whatever good reputation he has in order to net-slander others. He was never accused of «having a turkish name». There IS a question regarding his use of a name connected with barbarity and brutality, but the whole criticism on his views regards his bias, which makes him look even more vehement than Gruevsky himself.

    I don’t expect my comment to be posted, of course.

    Oh, and by the way, someone who openly supports one faction’s nationalism is never entitled to accuse others of the same, much less SLANDER them (Omadeon was among the first who publicly denounced the Greek justice system’s trial travesty that deemed a well-known neo-nazi author «innocent» of violating the country’s anti-racism legislation, although one of his books openly urged the readers to commit violent crimes against Jews: here are his – extremely critical of the Greek justice system – posts: https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2009/04/02/greek-nazi-justice/ and https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2009/04/12/nazi-lie-causes-greek-travesty-of-justice/ ). If a person who writes openly against ALL nationalisms (including Greek nationalism) is a… nationalist, then either Mr. Hoare is intellectually challenged or a slanderer; since you can’t be an idiot and get a PhD, I’ll go with the latter.

    Now, of course, that you have the posts available for your review (and there are MANY more anti-nationalist articles in his blog), it’s no longer «Hoare’s word against Omadeon’s», so Mr. Hoare can no longer throw around the weight of his academic titles to scare off and slander anyone critical of his writings.

    Personally, I am far more critical against Mr. Hoare than Omadeon and no PhDs and academic tenures impress me – it’s what one teaches, not his/her teaches tenure that leads me to form an opinion. And Mr. Hoare’s slanderous conduct, along with his unabashed adoption of the most extreme nationalism utilized by FYROM’s government, only serves to discredit him as an academic.

    P.S.

    Should this comment be rejected, I am also going to post it elsewhere in order to expose Mr. Hoare’s conduct.

  27. My friend, you don’t need to do this slanderous liar any favors by saving his reputation. He’s the one that dealt a low blow against you by slandering you as an «extreme nationalist», so he’s in the wrong. And, besides, he’s big enough (not to mention ugly enough) to defend himself.

  28. And one more thing: Academics, BY DEFINITION, don’t play dirty and Mr. Hoare plays a VERY dirty game. And if he thinks others are not AT LEAST just as skilled as he is in this kind of «internet warfare» that he chose, he is grossly mistaken.

  29. Airetikos,

    THANKS a lot for your support
    (and for justice itself, NOT just for me personally…)

    I am «Saving his reputation» IF he realises he made a mistake; IF he realises NOW, the need for self-criticism and for REAL reconciliation; I NEVER stop giving people THIS CHANCE….
    …even though SOMETIMES I am well aware of how extremely unlikely it is, for certain people, to REALIZE all this….

    P.S. I do NOT see it as demeaning to ACCEPT that one has made a mistake; on the contrary, I have ALREADY accepted my own mistakes, e.g. in the other blog’s dialog.

  30. Αdmitting one’s own mistakes is a sign of decency, honesty and dignity. The «Little Miss Can’t Be Wrong» attitude, on the other hand, shows that the person displaying this attitude is a little Drama Queen at heart. And I have no time for drama queens – in fact, I enforce a strict «NO DRAMA – VIOLATORS WILL BE BITCH-SLAPPED» attitude everywhere. And if Mr. Hoare continues his slanderous bullyism, I’ll certainly turn HIS games against him.

  31. Moreover….

    Quite frankly i do NOT understand the benefit for one’s «good reputation», if one (internationally esteemed scholar)…. demonizes an ENTIRE NATION (Greece) as chauvinistic, or (even less comprehensibly) one… feels a need to insult and slander ONE TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT Greek blogger, like… myself, as «(yet) ANOTHER CHAUVINIST WITH A BLOG» !!! (big deal…)🙂

    Ah well, MAYBE we should START TALKING, instead, to find a SOLUTION for our Balkan disputes, e.g. as in the old posts and discussions (about the «name dispute»)

    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/peace-loving-greeks/
    and
    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2008/04/04/the-new-york-times-editorial-board-of-imbeciles/

    Many people (even Greek anti-nationalists) perhaps find it a little difficult to understand WHY I support a «composite name» as the «best solution» of the «name dispute». Well, here is ONE reason why:

    1) JUST SUPPOSE (for… Dr. Hoare’s sake) that… most Greeks ARE deluded AND wrong (for the sake of argument) to demand a «composite name» for FYROM.
    2) In THIS case, HOW MUCH HATRED and TENSION will result, if -for instance- the «name dispute» is NOT resolved, i.e. if our neighbouring new nation is recognised as «Macedonia» while… HERE IN GREECE NATIONALISM THRIVES and BIGOTRY BECOMES UNIVERSAL? HOW can we avoid THIS kind of SERIOUS DAMAGE (also to international relations)? By… waiting (as Dr. Hoare SUGGESTED, advising FYROM people in one his posts -HERE, interviewed by «Nova Macedonia» newspaper) for… Greek nationalists to «change», after… MANY DECADES?
    -Is THIS
    what we want, Dr. Hoare,
    or… IS THERE SOMETHING BETTER we can do?

    Well, I will leave this for HIM, to think about! -hehe🙂

    Finally…
    WHY should ONE particular, one-sided fanatical INSISTENCE by ONE nation (FYROM) on the «Exclusive Copyright» of the name «Macedonia», be regarded as the ONLY IMPORTANT thing? Why not show SOME respect for the SECOND nation’s… bigots, too? (hehe🙂 ) WHAT are the «Evil Consequences» of a COMPROMISE by FYROM’s ultra-nationalists?
    The OPPOSITION in F.Y.R.O.M. has ALREADY STARTED asking EXACTLY SUCH questions, as well as criticize the new wave of «Archeo-Macedonist Nationalism»,
    e.g.
    http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2009/06/24/fyroms-rewritten-history-to-cause-troubles-with-greece-must-read/
    (article by Kim Mehmeti, an ethnic Albanian anti-nationalist critic in FYROM,
    «Grandfathers and Their Grandsons« – 22 June 2009).

  32. P.S. VERY strange….

    Usually comments ARE approved by the moderator in the «Srebrenica Genocide blog», MUCH quicker, … but NOT today !!!
    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html
    I expect that MOST probably they WILL be approved, but… EVEN so, even this noticeable big hesitation shows a LOT, I think…

    Perhaps the moderator does not realize that
    1) It is NOT our intent to create ANY kind of problem in their blog.
    2) The sole purpose of our answers was DEFENSIVE (against SLANDER).
    3) Personally I have little or nothing to add, unless Dr. Hoare INSISTS in his slanderous statements. IF -on the other hand- he remains silent, leaving our (published) comments unanswered, this means a peaceful END to the «problem», in that blog…
    4) THIS post has been «buzzed» by someone else (i.e. selected for intense attention by the ENTIRE Greek blogosphere).
    5) Dr. Hoare is WELCOME to continue HERE our dispute or debate, etc.
    6) the MORE hesitation to approve the comments, THE WORSE it will get…
    7) A possible NON-approval of our comments there, will be the WORST possible choice, for the other blog -and the reasons for this are… ALMOST self-evident.😉

    (I write all this FOR THE BENEFIT of the other blog’s moderator, IF he/she bothers to read the post here, too)

  33. I also like that «Srebrenica Genocide» page you linked to. It’s so fucking cool to see Bosnians deny the Armenian genocide «because who can really prove it anyway» while promoting their own.

    Nationalism has no bounds. I’m always suspicious of people’s nationalist motives. In fact, after years of naively believing in internationalism I’ve slowly become a nationalist myself.

    And I’m only half joking.😉

  34. @Yep
    I GET your point (hehe…)

    Well, well, well…

    I had a hard time… taming the «nationalist beast» within me, only to be mistaken, years later, for…
    YET ANOTHER nationalist… RABBIT !!😉

    It isn’t fair, NOT fair at all…😆

    _______
    P.S. In this blog EVERY comment is approved, unless it is spam or 100% insults.

    However,
    Unfortunately, because of DAILY insults sent here by Greek nationalists, I changed moderation settings to require «at least ONE comment already approved».

    So… if anyone is a new visitor, it will ONLY mean a little delay, for his/her comment to be approved and NO delay thereafter.

  35. P.S.2
    @Yep, you said…

    «It’s so fucking cool to see Bosnians deny the Armenian genocide “because who can really prove it anyway” while promoting their own…»

    Oh, dear !
    I hadn’t noticed this… I will CHECK OUT again.
    Thanx !

  36. Funny how a Greek is «self-denying» when rejecting the local nationalist metaphysics, whereas a Macedonian is «self-denying» when doing the exact opposite.

    Well I guess that’s because we are *really* descendants of ancient Greeks, while the Macedonians have invented the whole thing…

    IOW: σύνελθε.

  37. «Whether or not Ataturk was complicit in a genocide is up to the international courts to decide. Sure, he is dead, but – for the purpose of a fact – the court can still hold him and Turkey complicit in a genocide if they find them guilty. How do you, or anybody else, know that he is guilty? Do you realize how extremely difficult it is to prove the charge of genocide? I do.»

    In other words: who gives a fuck about people I don’t care and/or like.

  38. P.S.3
    Actually…
    A composite google-search, using the words «Armenian» and «genocide» and search-URL the Srebrenica Genocide blog, produced NO RESULT except… three comments, ALL of them NOT denying the Armenian genocide…

    Most notably, Dr. Hoare himself, does NOT deny the Armenian genocide and (surprise-surprise) chastises Turkey (a bit) for denying it, in his following comment:

    Marko Attila Hoare said…

    Daniel, you have done an excellent job in exposing this instance of falsification and denial by the Serbian media. As ever, the Srebrenica Genocide Blog is doing splendid work in destroying the deniers’ myths, thanks to your superior research and expertise.

    I will, however, express a disagreement with your interpretation about the Serbian past. It is always necessary to remind Serbs and people in general about the Nazi-collaborationist and Jew-murdering record of the Chetniks and Nedicites, in order to counter Serbian nationalist propaganda, which has spread the myth that it was only Croats and Muslims/Bosniaks who collaborated with the Nazis.

    However, this does not mean we should behave like them, and present the Serbs as somehow inherently prone to evil, the way Serb nationalists portray the Croats and Bosniaks as inherently evil.

    The Serbs behaved no better or worse than other former-Yugoslav peoples during World War II. Thus, the Croats had the Ustashas, the Muslims had the Handzar division and the Muslim Ustashas (from the former Muslim Branch of the HSS) and the Serbs had the Chetniks, Nedicites and Ljoticites.

    The reason that Serbia today is still governed by an extreme-nationalist, genocide-denying ruling elite, is that Serbia hasn’t made the transition to post-imperialist politics. Thus, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and Albania have all abandoned imperialism, but Serbia has not (neither has Turkey, which still denies the Armenian Genocide).

    To heal itself from the curse of extreme nationalism and fascism, Serbia needs to become a normal, peaceful country, like Bulgaria. This means Serbia must be kept out of Bosnia and Kosovo, and integrated into the EU.

    Then, perhaps, Serbia will be able to acknowledge Srebrenica and other historic crimes.

    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/12/bosniak-women-children-burned-alive-by.html#2301037184802270377

  39. @Yep,
    You are ABSOLUTELY right about that text-extract, but… I can’t find it through Google search.

    Has it been… removed from the S.G. blog?

    __________
    @j95
    Actually, perhaps I did not make it CLEAR, what I meant by «self-denying»;
    I did NOT mean «ancient metaphysics», but (a denial of) SLAVIC identity.

  40. Feel free to read my last comment😉

    Since I wanted to say this before but I know that it may disappoint you…I believe genuine anti-nationalists can be found in the hundreds world-wide, at best, so I’ll have to exclude you, and myself and Hoare like I mentioned above, from the label (possibly froggy as well since I do see a certain nationalism coming through at times).

  41. @Yep
    The problem is -I think- that (as j95 has said in another post, in his blog)…
    we are ALL born INTO nationalism(s),
    we are ALL raised AS nationalists,
    and it is -really- a VERY LONG, tedious process of personal transcendence and emancipation, etc….
    to become «free of nationalism».
    PERHAPS we can NEVER really make it, 100%.

    It is STILL worthwhile, however, to TRY and reduce it, make it ONLY A MINOR element, as harmless as possible.

    E.g. I MAKE an effort, to emphasize Dr. Hoare’s GOOD points, if I find any (as you already saw). It is NOT my intent to DEMONIZE him; since «demonisation» IS the bacic «molecule» of racism and/or nationalism….

    On the contrary, I CONGRATULATE Dr. Hoare if e.g. he RECOGNISES the Armenian genocide!🙂
    (or ANY genocide, even… Greek war crimes, needless to say)

  42. I don’t disagree with Hoare. In fact, I seem to agree with much of what he says even in the case of Greece (Croatia is another matter, after all he is a Croat nationalist).

    Though, to mention in jest a funny instance of his blogging, I have to admit that the article where he pretty much says that a country like Greece shouldn’t bully (indeed it should not, over the name or whatever) Alexander the Great’s Macedonia (badoing!) seems to pander to some «base needs». :-))

  43. @Yep
    I AM with you, and… (SURPRISE-SURPRISE)…
    I ALSO agree with a LOT that Dr. Hoare says,
    but (as the German saying goes)…
    «The Devil is hiding in the DETAILS»…🙂

    In… remarkable (hehe) synchronicity to YOUR comment, I was JUST looking at EXACTLY the same post, in his blog, the one you referred to… HERE is an extract:
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2007/12/

    Greece’s policy of denying the existence of a Macedonian nation while asserting the exclusively ‘Greek’ character of historic Macedonia thus represents the last dregs of a nationalist policy of forced homogenisation. It is equivalent to Turkey’s attempt forcibly to assimilate its ethnic Kurds on the grounds that they are ‘really’ Turks and its continued denial of the Armenian Genocide, or to Serbia’s claim to Kosovo as a ‘Serb land’ on the grounds that there are a handful of medieval Serbian monasteries there.

    Well, well, well…
    I certainly do NOT deny the «Greek policy of forced homogenisation». My problems (as regards the «name dispute») are elsewhere…

    (will come back on this…)

  44. As a matter of fact, I see NO reason to deny the «Macedonian nation», either. ALL I want is that… two and a half million GREEK Macedonians do NOT ALSO feel that their identity is denied…

    HENCE, or otherwise, a COMPROMISE is in order, here…

  45. Ah, well, I could mention some more such as his directing possible travelers to the «Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus» so as to spite the «racist Greeks» who abuse the descendants of Alexander the Great (pretty much his words, not mine). This kind of «anti-nationalism» is quite irksome.

    Really, revisiting his blog (I had come across it some months ago) is quite funny all in all.

  46. @Yep
    Well, I am certainly glad you came over, here…

    My OWN… dosage of nationalism NEEDS
    critical improvements by sincere critics!🙂

    I mean -WHAT the hell- the BEST way to transcend nationalism is DISCUSS it with people from other countries, people who are ALSO willing to reduce or give up their own nationalism…

  47. P.S.
    But to say that «we ALL have, each one of us, SOME DOSAGE of nationalism», is NOT the same as labeling someone else as (yet another) «chauvinistic nationalist»,
    in order to DEMONIZE that person…

    This kind of slander is SIMILAR e.g. to saying about someone that he or she «is a hateful person«.
    Well, we can, ALL of us, sometimes feel SOME hate, but this does NOT imply we «are hateful people».
    The analogy is almost exact, in fact, since nationalism IS linked with hatred (in all its negative forms)…
    …and as for «positive forms» (of nationalism), well, SORRY, I do NOT need them, either.
    I am PERFECTLY happy with my humanistic principles, and… IF I see an injustice, to try to see it without bias.

    __________
    P.S.2
    Actually… I personally think that…
    in a post-nationalist world, DEMONISATION is the BIGGEST problem.

    DEMONISATION is (the «basic molecule») at the HEART of ALL «-isms»
    (nationalism, racism, ANY -ism)… (and also scapegoating -especially)

    What we are experiencing, GLOBALLY, is a TRANSITION from the «Age of Nationalist Conflicts», to the Age of PURE DEMONISATION. (we are only beginning this transition, of course)

    Well, it’s like… moving on from morphine to… pure heroine ! 😆

  48. Actually we need to reject BOTH nationalist metaphysics.

    Actually you don’t. You said it: rejecting the greek load-a-crap is «self-denial». Accepting the macedonian load-a-crap is also self denial.

    The obvious conclusion is that the Greek national identity is more real. According to you, of course.

  49. @j95
    Nationalist metaphysics and CURRENT collective identity, as well as language, need to be DISTINGUISHED carefully.

    Perhaps you didn’t see my clarification, after you last spoke:

    omadeon, στο Αυγούστου 26th, 2009 στο 18:42
    @j95
    Actually, perhaps I did not make it CLEAR, what I meant by “self-denying”;
    I did NOT mean “ancient metaphysics”, but (a denial of) SLAVIC identity.

    In THIS particular sense, yes: Slavic Macedonian identity is DENIED e.g. when claiming that (their) «predominant ethnic identity» is…. Ancient Macedonian.

    Well, in THIS particular sense, what seems to have happened, is that the spiral of increasing nationalisms, has taken a NEW TURN, in which, the PARTICULAR self-denial of CURRENT (slavic) collective identity is prevalent, over there… and it already started to annoy THEIR OWN moderate critics (e.g. THIS guy, here).

    As regards ANCIENT identities, now, things are different. In THIS case, to… deny CURRENT identities, retreating in a fantasy world of the PAST, whatever past, is a mistake that we can safely attribute equally to both sides. It simply does NOT matter WHO the ancestors were. It’s a HARD lesson to learn, if one is a nationalist, but… it doesn’t even matter if «most genes» are A, or «most genes» are B…

    ____
    P.S.
    In the previous (last) paragraph I think I expressed better, what I meant by «the need to give up ALL nationalist metaphysics EQUALLY»; there is a subtle but VERY important distinction there. NOT understood well, by MOST people…

  50. P.S.2
    Actually, I think it’s quite possible that… the moderator(s) of the Srebrenica Blog do NOT allow the appearance of my extremely polite response to Dr. Hoare.

    This begins to look like EXTREME censorship, unless e.g. the moderator is absent (for some unknown reason…)

    What I mean by «EXTREME censorship», is INTENT to HARM by leaving pure SLANDER as «the last word» in a discussion while censoring EVEN THE MOST POLITE POSSIBLE RESPONSE…

    UPDATE: ALL comments were finally APPROVED, several hours later.

    especially as regards my first comment there, which I repeat ONCE MORE (to lessen… confusion because of Information Overload):

    Dr. Hoare,

    With respect, I think you have completely misunderstood what I said in my blog, about your middle name.

    First of all, I did NOT say you should… literally change your middle name; secondly I interpreted your middle name “Attila” (perhaps wrongly – NOT knowing you) as signifying a certain nationalistic CONTENT or INTENT, which I also found… puzzling because “Attila” is associated with war-crimes, as well as a historical leader of invasions in Europe – or not?

    Now, I am really very very sorry, if this has offended you, and (for compensation) I would encourage you to protest as strongly as you like, in my own blog, about this. I will NOT argue if this has appeared offensive to you; if it IS really your REAL name (and not an internet-knickname for… flame-wars as I had suspected) I apologize. What else can I say? Greek humour is NOT always good…

    However, I would also suggest you check out my views again, in calmness; I consider it a grossly slanderous, irrational demonisation, to be labeled a “Greek nationalist”!!!

    After all, the whole point of my creative dialog here, with Owen, and my only small disagreement with him (and you), is my objection to the use of demonizing labels like “genocide denier” to people who do NOT really deserve them. Equally, the use of slanderous labels like “nationalist” for someone like me who spent a LOT of time fighting nationalism (in my own country).

    Well, why don’t you come over to my blog, criticize me AS FIERCELY as you wish, presenting your views, or even… insult me? I give you my WORD OF HONOUR that you can do this freely without ANY censorship (and without ANY demonising “retaliation” on my part).

    With… anti-nationalist Appreciation, all the best to you, Dr. Hoare!

    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html

  51. Yep said it all: Hoare himself is a nationalist. j95, you are in no position to say anything on this matter, because (a) you are a well-known slandering LIAR, (b) one who adopts and promotes any party’s nationalism is never entitled to accuse others of nationalism, much less recall them to order. Hupocrite.

  52. @Airetikos

    hehe
    Actually I find your quarrels with j95 sometimes amusing…

    But… Look,
    1) he DID NOT insult you.
    2) I can USE a good critic, at times.
    e.g. IF I can get him to… agree with me, THEN my own freedom from nationalist bias will become… iso-certified (hehe), which is advantageous for my… good reputation!😆

    AT LEAST we can agree on SOME things…
    And the current intent for CENSORSHIP and DEMONISATION (in the other blog) should at least make him THINK about it.

    j95 is WELCOME here, WHATEVER he says.
    (Sorry, I HAVE to be fair…)

  53. P.S.
    Note, that I am NOT «just another chauvinist»
    but a VULGAR chauvinist, as well, with whom «it is not possible to have a civilised debate«…

    I initially thought he was a moderate Greek nationalist with whom it might be possible to have a civilised debate. But on closer inspection, he’s just another vulgar chauvinist with a blog.

    – ™ Dr. Attila Hoare

    @Airetikos
    Please read CAREFULLY, if you like, the wikipedia lemma on Dr. Hoare:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Attila_Hoare

    (If THIS is his idea of justice on the Web, with SUCH an impressive bio……)

  54. Dude: you take for granted that the Macedonian nationalist «subjective experience» is less genuine than its Greek counterpart (or any other nationalistic subjective experience for that matter), just because the former was first conceived 100 years ago while the other was first conceived 200 years ago (you see, there is _absolutely_ no other difference at least in terms of metaphysics).

    This _is_ chauvinistic enough for me (and for dr Hoare, I suppose).

    Now, I happen to know that you, personally, are _not_ a nationalist fucktard (which is much more than can be said of Airetikos, a fellow actually _believing_ that Macedonia, with its 6 ethnic minority parties and its quasi-binational structure is some kind of 3rd Reich Germany), but this doesn’t make your particular viewpoint any less chauvinistic. After all, you wouldn’t claim being 100% free of the thought system you were raised in, would you?

  55. I’ve seen the Wikipedia entry for Mr. Hoare. It looks like it was hastily written by him. Let me also remind you that the Wikipedia entries for the Bang & Olufsen audio products are displays of corporate fellatio written by fanboys, while the entries for many 70’s Italian automobiles were propagating the «soviet steel» myth.

  56. @j95

    Now, I happen to know that you, personally, are _not_ a nationalist fucktard …(etc. etc bla bla bla demonisation of the heretic…. )… but this doesn’t make your particular viewpoint any less chauvinistic.
    After all, you wouldn’t claim being 100% free of the thought system you were raised in, would you?

    Well, this «logic» is seriously faulty, if we take it literally:

    1)
    NOT being «100% free of the thought system one was raised in«, does NOT make ANYONE a «vulgar chauvinist who is incapable of civilized debate» – ™ Dr. Hoare.

    2)
    Personally… I don’t give a damn (REALLY a damn) about HOW another country wants to call itself, and I really wish that Greek Macedonians could have seen the WHOLE THING very differently, right from the start. Then we could have AGREED on a composite name (for our neighbour-country) and the whole issue would be FINISHED.

    Now, j95, if you revel in the thought of a country (Greece) with INCREASING nationalism and INCREASING hatred, against your… favourite nation (being an «anti-nationalist» vehement supporter of this nation, as you are, which is ABSOLUTELY FINE by me -haha)…
    …well -then- personally I do NOT feel well with the ensuing INEVITABLE rise of nationalism, even fascism.

    So, my logic is MAKE A DEAL with these people (the Slav Macedonians) to REDUCE the MADNESS of this dispute (as well as their own… FRESH «archeo-lagneia».…)
    My point being just that it MIGHT succeed.
    If it doesn’t, however, I won’t wear black clothes and mourn the «Death of Greek Macedonia». I will wear a swimming-suit, go for a Winter Swim and… try to relax from the SHEER hell of TWO mad nationalisms getting worse and worse, after they find… NO way to agree!

    I think you know my anti-nationalistic views and ESPECIALLY my anti-racist views MUCH, MUCH better than this…
    (and ESPECIALLY in view of the GROSS injustice done here you COULD find something SLIGHTLY more HUMAN to say).

    Sorry…

  57. ε πέρασα να σου πώ ενα Μπραβο σου για το θαρρος για εκεινο το σχολιο ..ξερεις ε;
    και οτι ελπίζω σε συνεχεια

    ( α ..και κατι αλλο..Ψαξε ..στη ν εποχη της λασπης ξερεις ποιων εναντιον ποιων ..την προσφατη ντε ..
    Ποιοι κατηγορουσαν τους ελαχιστους που κατα τα μεσα της δεκαετιας του 90 εφτασαν μεχρι το Σεραγεβο ακριβώς για να διαμαρταρηθουν για την σφαγή στη Σρεμπενιτσα
    Ακριβως γιαυτό..
    (Ψαξε εκει στα Βρωμερα σχόλια.. τοτε πριν απο τις Ευρωεκλογές ..Ξερεις ..;)
    Αντε να δουμε τι θα γινει ..

  58. @Heretic

    I’ve seen the Wikipedia entry for Mr. Hoare. It looks like it was hastily written by him…

    Oh, dear !
    PLEASE …
    Give me a break… dear friend, I THANK you for your 100% HUMAN support and also SO many positive things you said…

    However, I think it’s WRONG, extremely wrong, to demean Dr. Hoare (or ANYONE, for that matter)…

    Perhaps you didn’t take seriously the fact that e.g. he played a major role in writing-up the indictment against Milosevic, etc.
    The guy has BIG connections, SO high up the hierarchy of many different institutions that it’s RIDICULOUS of him to MISUSE (or abuse) his ESTABLISHED authority, for SHEER slander.

  59. @Νοσφερατος
    I ALSO thank you for coming here to express your support.

    You and I HAVE experienced conflict between us and (to the BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE) we STILL talk, STILL respect each other, STILL debate, debate, debate.

    However…
    WELCOME TO THE (international) DEMONISATION MACHINE;
    It’s… all over the place, and (for it) I am…
    «NOTHING BUT (yet) another VULGAR CHAUVINIST WITH A BLOG, who is… NOT capable of… civilised debate« – ™ Dr. Marko Attila Hoare.🙂

  60. P.S.
    @j95

    Dude: you take for granted that the Macedonian nationalist “subjective experience” is less genuine than its Greek counterpart (or any other nationalistic subjective experience for that matter), just because the former was first conceived 100 years ago while the other was first conceived 200 years ago (you see, there is _absolutely_ no other difference at least in terms of metaphysics).

    NO.

    There is NOTHING GENUINE in ANY nationalist «subjective experience», WHATSOEVER.

    It is ALL, ABSOLUTE and TOTAL BULSHIT.

    Nationalism is THE DEATH of EXPERIENCE.
    A SUBSTITUTE for REAL experience.

    And…. **you** are a NATIONALIST.

    Because you SUPPORT the WORST NATIONALISM
    in a dispute which NEEDS A SOLUTION.

    _______
    OK, OK, so… WHY did I call it «the worst nationalism»?

    BECAUSE IT IS A DENIAL OF CURRENT IDENTITY
    (NOT fiction about the REMOTE PAST -which is just a TOOL).
    THIS is an example of the ensuing EXTREME damage, and…
    it WILL get worse if one FEEDS and SUPPORTS it.
    _______
    P.S.2
    Furthermore….
    Dr. Hoare (According to Wikipedia) HAS DECLARED himself…
    «CHRISTENED INTO ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY».

    i.e. He is ALSO what we call «THEOUSOS».
    BOTH this AND a nationalist,
    HIMSELF, apparently…

  61. @nanos
    THANK you for your comment (which did NOT appear, because of your OWN request).

    On the whole, I agree with what you said, but… make sure you have a REAL and VALID e-mail so that I can respond to you in private.

  62. The wiki article was actually written by an editor who only edited Hoare’s page and the «Srebrenica Massacre blog» guy.

    If we don’t promote our interests, eh?

  63. http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/239/full

    Hoare on McCane: «Although far from uncritical of Turkey, he has indicated his awareness of its strategic importance, including vis-a-vis Iraq, and opposes Congressional recognition of the Armenian genocide as something that would needlessly damage the US’s relations with a key ally.»

    The non-recognition is a plus according to him.

  64. btw omadeon, isn’t that guy who wrote the piece criticizing macedonian national history (or mythology, rather) a native Albanian?

    I doubt an ethnic macedonian would ever write something like that. The only ones who do so are the ones who look to the east if yanowatimean.😉

  65. @Yep
    A VERY GOOD morning to you…🙂

    Wow, that WAS a remarkable piece of news, you brought here!!! hehe

    Here is the FULL paragraph,I found (thanks to your help):

    Obama has recently appointed Lee Hamilton as his foreign policy advisor; Hamilton has received funding from the leaders of both the Greek-American and Serb-American communities in the US. Obama has also prominently supported US Congressional recognition of the Armenian genocide, a move that would damage US relations with Turkey and strengthen the hand of Turkish anti-Western, ultra-nationalist elements (Turks may legitimately wonder why, of all the historic cases of genocide, it is this one alone that inspires the activity of certain US Congressmen, who meanwhile show no readiness to recognise the historical genocidal crimes of which Ottoman Muslims were victims).

    http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/239/full

    This PROVES beyond doubt, a certain HYPOCRICY, as well as (very simply) LYING.
    Why?
    Well, he PRETENDED to recognize the Armenian genocide in the Bosnian blog, whereas (in fact) his OFFICIAL position was AGAINST American recognition of the Armenian Genocide (to please McCain, Turkey, and the particular circles where he PROBABLY expects… PERSONAL REWARDS: promotion, projects, etc. -heavy stuff but QUITE COMMON)…

  66. @Yep

    btw omadeon, isn’t that guy who wrote the piece criticizing macedonian national history (or mythology, rather) a native Albanian?

    I doubt an ethnic macedonian would ever write something like that. The only ones who do so are the ones who look to the east if yanowatimean.

    VERY TRUE, so I have to admit -really- that the Albanian’s great article cannot really be attributed to an «anti-nationalist author» but to an ethnic MINORITY-author, who can easily criticize the prevalιng ethnic delusions of the majority because of his different ethnicity.

    However, on closer examination, that article contains extremely anti-nationalist GENERAL criticisms (expressed with COMPASSION as well)… against ALL kinds of antiquity-mongering nationalisms, INCLUDING (possibly) e.g. those ultra-nationalist Albanians who think… Alexander the Great was an «Illyrian» (therefore… ancient Albanian -hahaha😆 ).

    So, you are absolutely right; we have YET to see such… sanity on the part of an ethnic Macedonian, NOT deluded enough to see certain things AND fearless enough to express them (since he WOULD be automatically slandered to be a «traitor», if he DID express them… – this is ALREADY happening on a MASSIVE scale; evidence will be brought here LATER ON)

  67. NOT being “100% free of the thought system one was raised in“, does NOT make ANYONE a “vulgar chauvinist who is incapable of civilized debate”

    It does, in this particular topic. You simply have to get rid of the notion that macedonism is less genuine than hellenism. Stop saying things like «self denying slavs» (was my grandfather, whose mother tongue was arberisht, a «self-denying albanian»?) «Ataturk the genocide perpetrator» and «most greek antinationalists are actually supporters of other nationalisms».

  68. NEWS FROM THE SREBRENICA GENOCIDE BLOG:

    @Heretic @all
    I saw that ALL comments have been PUBLISHED, today…
    -in the discussion here:
    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html

    I wrote a new, CIVILIZED reply (awaiting approval):

    @Owen
    Thanks a lot for your balanced views and your HONOURABLE defense of my… sincerity and NON-chauvinism, which is an (unexpected) GREAT «plus» for this blog, as well.

    The issue is RESOLVED. It would not be resolved, if my comments were not allowed expression, so this is a pleasant surprise, which honours the blog itself.

    Ah well, I must restrain my own… expressive excesses, and also my fondness of… BORAT-the-movie extreme humour!🙂 As I said, Dr. Hoare is welcome to speak out… against me, in my own blog, so that we do not pollute the great discussion here with an off-topic, troublesome dispute.

    BTW, I DO owe Dr. Hoare an explanation (the apology I already expressed):

    As regards Alexander «the great» FEW people have escaped my… benign mockery of their name if they were misfortunate enough to have been NAMED after this… Great historical monster – there was even a SPECIAL historical satire post in my blog about «Big Alex the PSYCHO»).🙂

    @The Heretic
    THANK you, too; VERY VERY much, but… let’s NOT continue this RESOLVED issue; ALL unnecessary conflicts are… unnecessary (a tautology! -hehe)

  69. j95:

    NOT being “100% free of the thought system one was raised in“, does NOT make ANYONE a “vulgar chauvinist who is incapable of civilized debate”

    It does, in this particular topic

    @j95
    It appears, at the moment, that… ONLY YOU continue and persist in the SLANDER that I am a «chauvinist» (even Dr. Hoare… PROBABLY began regretting it).

    SHAME on you;
    is THIS your way of dealing with FRIENDS on the web?
    (when they are slandered in extreme ways?)
    Maaan, I AM dissappointed.
    HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I NOT DEFENDED **YOU**?

    (anyway, let’s forget this…)

    About… BIG DEAL comparisons, now:
    I quite frankly don’t give a fuck about WHO (which nationalism) is worse; I just want the issue RESOLVED and I want NOBODY’s nationalism to WORSEN.

    So, as regards the AMOUNT of delusion that is at the moment GROWING and WORSENING in F.Y.R.O.M. I have ALREADY shown you evidence. It IS your right to deliberately undervalue THEIR nationalism, but I think that… many years later you MIGHT regret this assessment…

  70. Wait a minute… Which part EXACTLY of the whole macedonism is «genuine»? The propaganda video that shows «God»… talking to FYROM’s people and telling them that they, the MACEDONOIDS, are the first race created by God? And, by the way, AFAIK, only a small part of the ancient Macedonian grounds is now part of FYROM. The rest is ancient Paeonia. And, well, FYROM’s population, from an ethnic standpoint, is a mixture of Slavs and Albanians, while the «Makedonski» or whatever they want to call it is almost indiscernible from the Bulgarian language. Not to mention that prominent politicians in FYROM who handled the whole naming issue openly claim that this population has nothing to do with ancient Macedonia and that Gruevsky’s macedonism is based on a 20th-century mythology.

    The only genuine thing about macedonism is its paranoia, which can be compared only to the Epsilonism promoted by the looney tunes-cuckoo-batshit-bonkers TV shows of Costas Hardavellas, Dimosthenis Liakopoulos et al.

    If we’re going to talk seriously, all of this brouhaha should be left out. And, of course, no serious historian would EVER endorse nationalisms based on such idiocy. Wouldn’t Victor Davis Hanson, for instance, look like a complete and utter idiot if he endorsed Epsilonism?

    @Omadeon: I recognize that Mr. Hoare contributed a lot to the indictment of Milosevic – he did some good work there. The thing is, when you do such good work, you ought to maintain your own prestige. And his petty internet drama against you ANNIHILATES most, if not all, of his positive contributions. Like I said, it takes great effort, great pain and lots of time to build a good reputation. But slip out just once and it’s all gone.

  71. @The Heretic
    I think that the best way to deal with Dr. Hoare’s MIXTURE of good and bad points is to… AVOID HIS OWN WORST MISTAKE:

    ******************
    DEMONISATION
    ******************

    THEN, and ONLY then, what WE LOVE MOST, will triumph:

    THE TRUTH ™ hehe

    P.S. I have NOT finished; press «refresh» for more🙂 …

  72. Demonization is the simplest – and most convenient – form of thinking. It requires no effort at all: it’s either black or it’s white. Absolute Good or Absolute Evil. Nothing in between. And when this simplistic, idiotic way of thinking (which forms the very basis of all religious, political and athletic fanaticisms) is combined with the snobbery and selfishness someone CAN develop when s/he climbs to the lofty heights of the academia or the political scene (and makes contacts in high places), you have a horrendous recipe.

    How many times have I said – as a PhD candidate – that an academic must be EXTREMELY humble and always consider himself/herself as nothing but a mere servant and seeker of knowledge and facts? Countless. And I’m never going to grow tired of saying it.

  73. @heretic
    Well said, but… WE need to restrain our FIERCE PASSION in self-expression, too, my dear Heretic! (i say this to MYSELF, countless times..)

    You see -after all the turmoil ENDED in the other blog- WHAT remained?

  74. P.S.2
    An extract from our friend Owen’s comments shows…
    that NOBODY IS PERFECT in this world (hehe):🙂

    (Owen, in the Srebrenica Genocide blog, talking about… me)

    He has a reflective style of writing which seems to be based on an openness to both sides of an argument that I’m not completely happy with, but willing to accept at face value at the moment.

    Well, I am NOT happy with anyone NOT seeing both sides of an argument;
    i.e.
    what Owen «is not completely happy with»,
    is my definition of happiness (about truth):
    – SEEING BOTH SIDES, of an argument, always…

    (unless he means…
    there is something ELSE 8) hiding behind this openness :mrgreen: -hehe)

  75. P.S.3 I didn’t deal yet, with some… OTHER kinds of TOTAL bullshit:

    …You simply have to get rid of the notion that macedonism is less genuine than hellenism. Stop saying things like “self denying slavs” (was my grandfather, whose mother tongue was arberisht, a “self-denying albanian”?) “Ataturk the genocide perpetrator” and “most greek antinationalists are actually supporters of other nationalisms”.

    ANSWERS:
    1) About «macedonism» the topic was covered, I think (although MUCH MORE can be said, later on…)

    2) About… «grandfathers who spoke arberistht», we live in the 21st CENTURY now, and I HATE going back to BARBARIC times, many, many decades ago when ethnic self-denial was COMMON… (willingly or not) (HUNDREDS of years ago in fact, when Christian Albanians in Greece first started identifying with Greek culture -if I’m not mistaken)

    3) About Kemal Ataturk the genocide perpetrator, let’s leave this to HISTORIANS. Perhaps… some Armenian Historians, or -even- TURKISH ANTI-NATIONALISTS (like Taner Aksam) are MUCH, MUCH MORE knowledgeable than… PETTY and BIASED, BLIND SUPPORTERS of Kemalist Turkish nationalism. (with a QUITE probable PERSECUTION MANIA against… their own country, if it’s NOT Turkey)
    See also: http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=13494

    4) about “most greek antinationalists (who) are actually supporters of other nationalisms”, ONE PERFECT EXAMPLE of this… fashionable trend, was ALREADY mentioned in (3).

    5)
    the INVISIBLE side of ALL this BULLSHIT, is really QUITE SAD…

  76. P.S.4
    I received a VERY polite e-mail by Dr. Hoare (sent yesterday in fact – but I did NOT know it till today) which contains some VERY VALID complaints, since he felt insulted as regards the issue of his middle name; I also think he is RIGHT, about this.

    I did not expect such an e-mail, which honours him for the fact that he wrote it, and ALSO for the fact that (despite his criticisms) he recognised my honesty and my own «honourable» effort to be FAIR.

    I have written back, with apologies.

    NOBODY should feel insulted about his own name; however, I also explained to him the reason for this tragic misunderstanding…

  77. P.S.5 What remains is…

    Our OWN (VERY GREEK) ABSOLUTELY TOTAL BULLSHIT
    (of an «anti-nationalist» friend’s «anti-nationalism» – MY ASS):

    …You said it: rejecting the greek load-a-crap is “self-denial”.
    Accepting the macedonian load-a-crap is also self denial….

    I wonder… did I REALLY say, anything LIKE that?

    P.S.6
    hmmmmmmm……….
    I BEGIN to see HOW this is constructed (out of NOWHERE)…

    Well, one day, MAYBE there will be shops,
    just round the corner, SELLING «new national identities«…🙂

    (what a load of SHEER SOPHISTRY…)

  78. Let’s bring the discussion back to Dr. Hoare, shall we? Any academic worth his or her salt must be characterized by intellectual sophistication. You mentioned – and I’m glad you did – that Hoare sees things through a logic XOR operator. This means that his thinking is crude, simplistic and, as History has proven, dangerous. Now, I will once again question his scientific validity. How can I take seriously a scientist who bases his reasoning on such oversimplifications? The guy needs to stop blogging and start studying logic for a bit. Then again, given his rather inexplicable hatred towards all that is Greek (since we are all «vulgar nationalists» to him), perhaps logic is a taboo subject for him, as some pioneering work in this sector was done by these loathsome ancient Greek philosophers…

  79. @Αιρετικός,
    Good morning!

    To be honest, I’ve only just began to scratch the surface of Dr. Hoare’s writings, since he is quite prolific (and I haven’t even read his books YET). So I have to be cautious; NOT drawing… easy conclusions by any means, from now on.

    I am also well-aware of the fact that nobody can teach History in a reputable British university (Kingston in this case) without some REAL intellectual value. Having lived in the UK for 13 years I DO know this.So, far from demeaning Dr. Hoare, my main effort is to be AS FAIR as I can, about his ideas, his politics and his work. In his way, I hope to avoid ALL over-simplifications and demonisations, as well as any… abuses of the XOR logic operator (the recipe hidden in… Mr. George W. Bush’s immortal words: «he who is not with us, is against us»).🙂

    Now: As regards Dr. Hoare’s blog-posts and newspaper articles, as well as his politics, I made certain points which he had the… admirable intellectual honesty to recognize as «valid arguments», in his private letter, even though he also stressed that he… doesn’t agree with any of them (hehe); more about this I can’t disclose now, since his e-mail (of only a few lines) was _private_..

    To cut a long story short, I am intrigued by Dr. Hoare’s persistent opposition to ANYTHING that can be good for… Greece, to such an extent that I feel sorry for his inevitable… TOTAL demonisation by Greek readers!🙂 So, for the benefit of Greek readers I also discovered… mitigating antidotes:
    -His post that rejoices in a recent Turkish legal DEFEAT, as regards Greek-Cypriot estate in the occupied part of Cyprus, a case where Tony Blair’s wife ALSO LOST (as a lawyer defending Turkish Cypriot interests):
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/a-defeat-for-ethnic-cleansing-in-cyprus-and-for-the-eus-moral-idiocy/
    (I’ve already given this link; I repeat it because I think absolutely no-one should miss it)

    There is also a second Greek-friendly post by Dr. Hoare, praising the… Greek revolution (as he called it); I’m afraid NOT the… 1821 revolution -of course- but the… «December revolution» following the murder of Alegis Grigoropoulos. And before anyone starts mumbling things about this being very sinister (of Mr. Hoare) I must say that his ideas about the necessity of Greek democratisation can hardly be called anti-Greek or anti-democratic; far from it !
    (I will find the link for this later and bring it here).

    Nevertheless… that’s IT !
    I am afraid these are the ONLY two posts by Dr. Hoare, I found, with ANYTHING good about Greece. EVERYTHING ELSE I found is SO extremely anti-Greek that… I rub my eyes and wonder why

    [more about this in my NEXT comment]

  80. (part 2)

    To give you a summary, a friend and I made a detailed search, last night, about Dr. Hoare’s work. My friend (being a librarian) was even more effective, and she discovered a simple «rule»:

    The «Hoare Rule»:

    IF anyone, anywhere in the world, says or does anything good for Greek interests, THEN Dr. Hoare immediately lashes out against that person.

    😆

    E.g. he lashed out against Obama, as well as against Mr. Sarkozy, for making «concessions» to Greece. Furthermore, there is an ALARMINGLY extreme TITLE, of an article by Dr. Hoare (unfortunately unavailable in English) published in the prominent Slav-Macedonian newspaper «Nova Makedonija», which is:
    ‘I do not want to live in an EU that supports Greek expansionism’ (Nova Makedonija, 11 April 2009).

    BTW, the site of Nova Makedonija is: http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/ (Offering NO English translation)
    So… if anyone speaks their language, I recommend finding AND translating this important article. It’s a VERY important article, I think, because the VERY title of it is simply a BIG LIE:

    There is NO «Greek expansionism» !
    (period)

    Except…
    The ONLY «Greek expansionism» that exists, at the moment, is a small minority’s extreme ideas, (which I already condemned as) BOTH fascist AND treacherous:
    -The ideas e.g. expressed in the end of a blog-post by Mr. Spiros Soussanis (a candidate M.P. for the «Pammacedonian Party» of Papathemelis and Zouraris):
    http://soussanis.com/2009/07/21/%ce%b1%ce%bd%ce%b5%ce%bd%cf%84%ce%b1%cf%87%cf%84%ce%bf%ce%b9-%cf%86%ce%bb%cf%89%cf%81%ce%b9%ce%bd%ce%b1-19-%ce%b9%ce%bf%cf%85%ce%bb%ce%b9%ce%bf%cf%85-2009/
    -a post ending with a CLEAR EXPANSIONIST THREAT against FYROM (the sentence «Macedonia was not completely liberated in 1913», etc).
    A threat which -of course- is unequivocally and a priori CONDEMNED by ANYONE with… minimal sanity of mind, in Greece, INCLUDING our… (idiotic and corrupted) government – who are -at least- not THAT deranged…. (hehe)
    Finally… a threat which is combined with (this party’s blog-post’s) clear support of a… NEO-NAZI organisation (Golden Dawn), which should be regarded as being of ALARMING significance, by ALL Greek readers, who ought to STOP demonizing enemies, and START QUESTIONING our so-called «friends», IMMEDIATELY.

  81. I doubt he meant territorial expansion. Greece obviously doesn’t want or need that anyhow; a decent chunk of Macedonians would probably educate the idea of their country’s territorial expansion but they simply won’t/can’t get it since they live in a poorer and smaller country with the majority ethnic group facing demographic problems (did anyone say Kosovo?).

    In any case, I hope that he is against «Aegean Grey Zones» as well, though I somehow doubt it.🙂

  82. @Yep
    I do hope so (that he didn’t mean territorial expansion).

    Nevertheless, perhaps you realize the significance of the title, to provoke (once again) nationalist hatred against Greece in the Slav-Macedonian journal’s readers.

    It was also probably an article intended for «internal consumption» since Dr. Hoare NEVER BOTHERED TO TRANSLATE IT in plain English !

    Ah well (as you and I already discovered) Dr. Hoare sometimes says completely different things to different audiences: In a particular (more official) medium he condemned American recognition of the Armenian genocide, whereas in the Srebrenica Genocide blog, he chastised Turkey for NOT recognizing the Armenian genocide. It is THIS type of serious discrepancy or inconsistency that shows perhaps a strong OPPORTUNISM, on his behalf, as well as a justification of the label «hypocricy» for his attitude. Although -to be honest- I have NO evidence that AS A PERSON he is a «hypocrite»!🙂

  83. I meant «entertain the idea» but «educate» also fits. This, obviously, is the case with all nation-states but it applies nicely to one that is so in love with the idea of a disunited (because unity was apparently a reality, once upon a time) homeland.

  84. Yep,

    You are right !
    yep!🙂

    Educating or entertaining the idea of a «once upon a time united homeland», is (as you know) a very strong central idea of «Macedonian» nationalism, an irredentism which alarms Greeks, very reasonably so. EVEN IF it is a clear exaggeration for Greeks to fear… an invasion (this is bullshit), such irredentism prepares negatively (to say the least) the EMOTIONS and ATTITUDES of the future, in FYROM’s young generation; some of them have ALREADY beaten up Greek tourists, a few weeks ago.

    And it’s only the beginning of what appears to be a TOTALLY UNNECESSARY long-term hatred and inter-national conflict, which -surely- ANY scholar with ANY genuine concern for a lasting Peace, should try to discourage very strongly (EVEN if one likes FYROM more than Greece).

    THIS is the problem, in Dr. Hoare’s attitude, that I found alarming enough to discuss in this post:
    He BOLSTERS ULTRA-NATIONALISM….

  85. P.S.
    Now… I am EQUALLY worried about «Macedonian» irredentism against BULGARIA, as well, which is increasing.

    And… also in THIS respect, Dr. Hoare’s support for «Macedonism» very clearly… throws oil into THIS fire; THIS kind of ultra-nationalist fire of hatred, against BULGARIA; totally UNNECESSARY, as well as irrationally based on PURE FICTION – the so-called «Ancient Macedonian ethnicity») (my ass)….

  86. P.S.2
    When advising «Macedonians» to NEVER GIVE UP AN INCH of their «identity» (i.e. their ULTRA-NATIONALIST FICTION)…
    Dr. Hoare becomes an instigator of LONG TERM HATRED against all the Balkan countries that are (sanely) opposed to this fiction:
    -BOTH Bulgaria AND Greece; even Serbia – to some extent, etc.

    _______
    P.S.3
    O.T.O.H.
    A SANE attitude, on behalf of Slav-Macedonia, would be the simple RECOGNITION of their ESSENTIALLY SLAVIC national identity; something they have EVERY RIGHT to be PROUD of…

  87. Well, dear Heretic,
    *maybe*
    JUST *maybe*
    ….Dr. Hoare was simply… PROJECTING ! hehe🙂

    i.e. indulging in simple PROJECTION (and INVERSION)
    -a very well-known psychological phenomenon, very commonly occurring in the minds of people who… are largely UNAWARE of those very specific traits they project onto others, demonising them!!🙂

    O.T.O.H.
    we must ALSO consider the fact that he based this accusation on my (admittedly wrong) references to his middle name, and we must ALSO consider the possibility that this was largely a pretext (since I DID NOT KNOW that this name is a «Turkish name», and even now I think Attila was a HUN and NOT a Turk, etc. etc.)

    And finally, Dr. Hoare’s ENGLISH standards of common decency and political correctness, contributed to all this…

    I’d say ALL of these elements were probably COMBINED together, causing the Demonisation (and the slanderous distortion)…

  88. @IB
    Thanks for your comment!
    I TRANSLATE it now:

    «he (Dr. Hoare) writes Kosovo as «Kosova». Only Turkish / Albanians write it like this.

    Well, perhaps you are right; maybe THIS IS an expression of… International Courtesy and Fondness towards Turkey and Albania, as a matter of fact…

    However, this is a minor thing, compared to other things…🙂

  89. P.S.
    Besides, I would be VERY happy to see Dr. Hoare (or ANYONE) express international courtesy and understanding towards EVERY country, impartially.

    What our new friend «I.B.» effectively reminded us, becomes more serious if we think about it in conjunction with Dr. Hoare’s repeatedly… derogatory (or ironical – to say the least) references to Greece and the Greeks…

    (about which -again- I HAVE NO PROBLEM; but also… just wishing that he didn’t extend this… legitimate personal dislike, ALSO into politics!🙂 )

    P.S.2
    I must explain that I do NOT demand everyone’s «respect for Greece»; nor anyone’s «love for Greeks»; NOR would I complain, e.g. if someone came out and said «I hate Greeks», since it HIS RIGHT to hate ANYONE.

    Oh no..
    My problems begin, when a person INSTIGATES national hatred (in ANY country AGAINST another country)…
    i.e. I am NOT SUPERFICALLY «politically correct», to demand «emotional respect» (or accuse others of «vulgar chauvinism» EVEN WHEN THEY BEHAVE like this).

    However, I try to be GENUINELY politically correct, demanding PEACE and non-hatred, on a national and international level.

  90. P.S.3
    Speaking of hatred… LET’s RELAX,
    and try to… ALSO like, Dr. Hoare’s POSITIVE SIDE.

    Does anyone DOUBT that it exists?

    Does anyone WONDER if e.g. he has a sense of humour, too?

    Well, he DOES.
    He DOES have a positive side (I hope -hehe)
    which includes AT LEAST a very good sense of HUMOUR:
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/greek-threat-to-simpsons-star/😆

    (VERY good medicine for… Greek nationalists)

    ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS… !!!

  91. Come on Heretic,
    KnowDame and I found his post VERY funny.

    Do you DOUBT that the BEST humour CAN ALSO come from… 5-year-olds?😆
    I am NOT implying anything bad (hehe); but…
    «with the eyes of a child you can SEE» – ™ The Moody Blues!🙂

    (I said it before, we should NOT, NEVER, EVER, demean Dr. Hoare; on the contrary I think we should be IMPECCABLY fair towards him, so that he can NEVER complain about ANYTHING…)

  92. And the worst part is when this someone who instigates national hatred does this by using his academic prestige.

    Well… (seriously now) THIS IS the thing…
    The reason why he is (also) LOVED by FYROM-people,
    the reason why he IS an effective TOP LEVEL propagandist for them, etc. etc.

    ALL they need is a Dr. Hoare
    (as well as a Dr. Danforth – if I remember the name correctly)
    …to justify UNJUSTIFIABLE positions
    (like their irredentist «Archeo-Macedonism»)…

    P.S. …As well as their BASICALLY ERRONEOUS idea that the wider geographic region of Macedonia (in all 3 countries, Greece, Bulgaria and FYROM) was once upon a time MOSTLY INHABITED by Macedonian Slavs; NO, it was NOT; they were only a LARGE MINORITY; large but STILL a minority…)

  93. First of all, the Moody Blues are highly overrated (especially after copycats Barclay James Harvest came along) – the only record they issued that was worth listening was «Days Of Future Passed».-

    Second, his attempt at cracking something that resembled something that resembled something that resembled something that REMOTELY resembles something that could possibly, if you squint and perform a leap of faith, be called a joke (the «something that resembled» sequence is NOT a typo – see the «I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat…» verse from King Crimson’s «Indiscipline») is horrendously incomplete and shows both ignorance of historical figures that could spark such debacles and a lack of imagination.

    Why, the guy is forgetting that the Greek Nationalist Government, which is in secret collaboration with the ΛΑ.Ο.ΣΥ.Ν.Ο./LA.O.SY.N.O. (Λαϊκός Ορθόδοξος Σύνδεσμος Νεοναζί Ομοφυλόφιλων/Popular Orthodox Coalition of Neonazi Homosexuals) and the ΛΑ.Ο.ΣΥ.ΔΙ.ΣΑ/LA.O.SY.DI.SA. (Λαϊκός Ορθόδοξος Σύνδεσμος Δικομανών Σαλταρισμένων/Popular Orthodox Coalition of Litigious Nutjobs) has recently filed a high-level lawsuit against Turkey for the use of the name «Homer» by Omer Vryonis, a well-known warlord during the Greek Revolution. He is also forgetting that the LA.O.SY.DI.SA. also filed a lawsuit against all english-speaking nations because, since (as told by the «wise old sage» – ο σοφός ο γέροντας – usually mentioned by wacko nationalist TV prophet Dimosthenis Liakopoulos) English is a subset of the Greek language, they owe the LA.O.SY.DI.SA. $5,000,000,000,000,000,000 in royalties. It is also rumored that the LA.O.SY.DI.SA. is going to team up in this legal action with other nutjobs (who are just as whacked out of their minds, but extremely effective) in the IFPI, the RIAA and the MPAA.

    Why did Mr. Hoare leave THIS most important litigious action out of the joke?

  94. @Heretic
    Hahaha… OK,
    If you insist…

    Now, something else which is VERY interesting…
    INITIALLY, I thought Dr. Hoare’s blog is extremely popular, widely read by a great number of people, outnumbering heavily e.g. the traffic of my own humble blog…

    Today, I decided to check this out.
    Well, the results are… amusing:
    http://www.quantcast.com/profile/traffic-compare?domain0=&domain1=omadeon.wordpress.com&domain2=greatersurbiton.wordpress.com&domain3=&domain4=

    i.e.
    Dr. Hoare’s blog-audience is NOT bigger than THIS blog’s, so he’d better watch out, in case some of my criticisms ARE valid…🙂

  95. My friend Omadeon, people with REAL humor have STUDIED the works of truly witty people like Aristophanes, Menander, Dante Alighieri, Cyrano de Bergerac, Oscar Wilde, Woody Allen, Monty Python, Pittigrilli, George Carlin et al.

  96. Omadeon, you spend too much time *worrying* about people’s opinions. :))

    I’m trying to find one of Hoare’s pieces on the Gaza war. If I remember correctly, it was a lot of fun.

  97. A point of information: Hoare according to his own admission to the diaspora crazies has an axe to grind with Greeks back from his Cambridge University undergraduate days (fortunately not with me though we overlapped). It’s not uncommon for complexes formed in late adolescence/early adulthood to haunt one for the rest of one’s life.

    Hoare claims objectivity and then proceeds to provide either statements that are accurate but lacking further detail are deceiving (like the part about 40% of the population of Greek Macedonia being Greek at the time of its incorporation suggesting the rest was maybe «Macedonian» – the actual picture is far more complex), complete misrepresentations (talking of expulsion of Slavs and Muslims and settling of refugees without even mentioning that it was part of mutually agreed upon population exchanges – thereby adopting the Macedonist line about colonization), or outright lies like the reproduction of the usual 1989 canard:

    «Greece only named the province in question ‘Macedonia’ as recently as 1989, presumably with the deliberate, cold-blooded intention of having an excuse to provoke the current dispute when Macedonia declared independence from Yugoslavia. Having spent the best part of the twentieth century forcibly assimilating or dispossessing its own Slavic Macedonian minority, it was also presumably only in 1989 that Greece felt it was safe to do this, without undermining this same policy of national homogenisation.»

    He is agenda driven – not facts driven. That’s why he’s adopted terminology like «Aegean Macedonia». He dismisses any sign of nationalist excess on the part of his proteges (eg. Greater Macedonia maps) when it comes to Greece while blowing out of proportion the respective Greek excess. But he is in the position (through the HJS) to write «influential» editorials. A reading of the last articles on
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/category/macedonia/page/3/
    (and previous ones) will make his bias very clear.

    Thankfully his even greater love for Albanians has not made him take up the cause of the Albanians in Greece yet. That time will come and at that point I’m sure I’ll be reading about the forced assimilation of my (and – o tempora o mores – apparently j95’s) grandfather and the insolent Greek attempt to do it all over again. My grandfather would at least call him a gomar and not stop at the ai kihou (Arvanitika is a wonderful language when it comes to cursing) but fortunately he’s been gone almost 20 years now and will never see that day.

    Oh and j95, according to the logic of the Hoares and Filipovs etc. of this world your (and my) grandfather was quite obviously a “self-denying albanian”. Since you choose to ally yourself with them just get over it. On the other hand I can freely call them a skardat mout.

  98. @Ξεψαγμένος
    I AM VERY GLAD to see you again! Welcome…
    Well-informed and to the point, as always…

    As regards «self-denying Albanians»… WHAT can I say? Maybe they were also… «self-destructive Albanians»: They FOUGHT fiercely TOGETHER with the other «Romioi»…

    As regards your other extremely valuable information, I am simply AMAZED !🙂

    @Αιρετικός

    Omadeon, you spend too much time *worrying* about people’s opinions.”

    Well, YES, I initially felt a little worried, in case Dr. Hoare makes me stigmatized as a… «known vulgar chauvinist»🙂 throughout the whole wide web of the Civilized World (capable of civilized debate – unlike me, who is «incapable» of it -hehe)…
    WELL SAID!

  99. P.S.
    Oops… Sorry,
    it was Yep who said that.

    There is NO doubt about it, yes….
    ____
    P.S.2
    Although I am NOT worried, about the opinion of… fascist trolls, who often raid this blog, like…🙂

    και ξανά λουγκρίτσα θα σε ξαναβρώ στους μπαξέδες
    takatakatakata@taka.ka
    85.75.136.254 (i.p. address)

    …Who’s only comment was a… link to j95’s blog, where he posted some sophisticated mythomaniac slander, earlier on today!

    _____
    P.S.3
    Oh dear !… 🙂
    There was YET ANOTHER (blocked) «comment», a few minutes ago, from this blog’s… fascist troll Number 1,
    which shows that…
    1) he doesn’t speak any English (and he is unable to insult me in English)
    2) he can’t GET the fact, that I do NOT belong to ANY Greek political party (except vaguely supporting a small number of Ecologists, minority within their own Green Party).

    The troll said:

    κουραδεον φασιστα συριζαιεεεεεεεε

    (TRANSLATION: «Shitty-omadeon, fascist, SYRIZA-member» -where «SYRIZA» is a small Greek left-wing party, of marxists who have been dissappointed by Stalinism).
    What an idiot !
    He can ONLY see the world in terms of Black and White:
    -The Good Nationalists and the Bad Anti-Nationalist SYRIZA-party members.

    Well, I translated his insult, as a point of information for English-speaking, non-Greek readers (and our friend Yep, who is NOT Greek, A.F.I.K.). However, if I released his «comment» from the moderation-queue, WordPress might allow him to «comment» again and again and again…

  100. “Greece only named the province in question ‘Macedonia’ as recently as 1989″

    Amazing. Did he even bother to check out if that’s true?

    So, there you have it, when you hear «independent think-tank», think again.

    Omadeon, releasing the IP addresses of commentators is bad form, even if they are massive idiots. Tisk Tisk.

  101. Btw

    «If the Macedonians under Alexander the Great could conquer Persia and go as far as India with their armies, I am sure today’s Macedonians can face off a tin-pot neighbourhood bully.»

    said Hoare who otherwise believes that «Slavs should be allowed to share in the heritage of Alexander the Great».

    So, what is it? Share or monopolize? I always hated the «monopolization» argument but it seems that I might eventually adopt it.

  102. @Yep
    This guy, whose IP address I released, is CONTINUALLY changing his IP addresses, also spamming and insulting SEVERAL blogs at the same time, etc. etc.
    Thanks to the sharing of those addresses, we managed (another blogger and I – who did not appear here in this post) to… LOCATE him and block him, as well as start getting real clues about who he is…
    Moreover, it’s his… standard «punishment» AFTER WARNINGS have been issued, at some point… anyway…

    Something VERY VERY important, you just said… (quoting Dr. Hoare)

    “If the Macedonians under Alexander the Great could conquer Persia and go as far as India with their armies, I am sure today’s Macedonians can face off a tin-pot neighbourhood bully.”

    said Hoare who otherwise believes that “Slavs should be allowed to share in the heritage of Alexander the Great”.

    So, what is it? Share or monopolize? I always hated the “monopolization” argument but it seems that I might eventually adopt it.

    Actually, you’re right (of course) but… something else also showed through, in this extract:

    A bone-chilling encouragement of military aspirations, as well, on behalf of «Macedonians», to prepare for a possible… future War with Greece. It’s really quite alarming…

    I wonder if Marko realizes WHAT messages he is really transmitting to an already hate-ridden Nationalist «Macedonian» sentiment…

    After all, the LOGICAL thing to do, when preparing a nation’s COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS (or «Morphogenetic field») for Military Confrontation in the remote future, is to give them a HERO (like Alexander) whose ancient military achievements are… AN EXAMPLE TO BE FOLLOWED…

    Oh dear….

  103. Η θεση του Dr. Hoare στο θεμα ειναι ιδιαιτερα περιεργη. Δηλαδη ειναι ΑΔΥΝΑΤΟΝ να καταδικαζει κανεις την παρεμβαση του ΝΑΤΟ αλλα να θεωρει ταυτοχρονα τις πραξεις των Σερβων αποτροπαιες;

    Ναι. Μπορείς να κριτικάρεις όσο θες τα κίνητρα και τις τεχνικότητες της επέμβασης του ΝΑΤΟ αλλά το απλό αποτέλεσμα είναι οι Σέρβοι μούλωξαν.

  104. “Greece only named the province in question ‘Macedonia’ as recently as 1989″

    Amazing. Did he even bother to check out if that’s true?

    It is true. The official administrative name was «Northern Greece», apparently because we wanted to emphasize the greekness of the place. «Macedonia» was just a geographical term, usually signifying the «historic» macedonia (i.e. Yugoslav Macedonia+Greek Macedonia+Bulgarian Macedonia).

  105. P.S. Actually I found the article we are discussing:
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/macedonia-must-defend-europe/

    The article’s header-image is the «Macedonian» flag.
    The article’s last statement is the one quoted before:

    “If the Macedonians under Alexander the Great could conquer Persia and go as far as India with their armies, I am sure today’s Macedonians can face off a tin-pot neighbourhood bully.”

    In the post itself, near the beginning, one reads:

    Greece argues that it has a province of its own called ‘Macedonia’, and the existence of a ‘Republic of Macedonia’ implies a territorial claim on this Greek province. This is belied by the fact that the Republic of Macedonia has existed since the 1940s, initially as a member of the Yugoslav Federation, while Greece only named the province in question ‘Macedonia’ as recently as 1989, presumably with the deliberate, cold-blooded intention of having an excuse to provoke the current dispute when Macedonia declared independence from Yugoslavia.

    This is a total distortion, of very recent KNOWN historical facts. We can’t really falsify history which is… THAT recent. Or can we?….

    _________
    Notice the bold-emphasized text:

    «believed by the fact»
    and
    «presumably with the deliberate, cold-blooded intention of having an excuse to provoke the current dispute»…

    Well, well, well…
    I was ALIVE and WELL at the time, and… WELL informed (till about 1992 when I began working TOO hard for my own one-man-show type of s/w company)…
    I have read about these matters, HUNDREDS of pages.

    I’m afraid the whole paragraph quoted is totally wrong and that it severely distorts WELL KNOWN PROVABLE facts…

    Let’s take the second part of this, first:

    «Greece only named the province in question ‘Macedonia’ as recently as 1989, presumably with the deliberate, cold-blooded intention of having an excuse to provoke the current dispute…»

    I remember the dawn of National Fear (mixed with real paranoia). Many of us thought the country was close to war, at the time…
    It’s QUITE NATURAL for the government to take action (whatever action) a few months in advance, based on fears about this new country that had long been suppressed or put aside, for a number of many years, long BEFORE 1989…

    I mean…
    1) WHAT «deliberate, cold-blooded intention»
    (this is TOTAL slander and truth-inversion)

    2) what «excuse»? (they needed NO excuse -SHITTING in their pants ALREADY)

    3) what «provocation»?
    (as if the original «Macedonian» flag was NOT a DELIBERATE cold-blooded PROVOCATION…)

    I’d say that Greece was not the «bully» at the time, but the fear-ridden BIG FAT CHICKEN! 🙂

  106. which I do call “FYROM” but for very different reasons than the Greek nationalism which Dr. Hoare assumes to be always the case

    Can’t be too different. After all, you and the Greek nationalism are in total disagreement with roughly 500 vernaculars, including the one of the people in question.

  107. @j95
    It’s a shame I have NO permission YET to show you a private letter (ANOTHER one) from Dr. Hoare, where he says VERY clearly he REGRETS thinking of me as a CHAUVINIST.

    CONFLICT RESOLUTION is BEYOND your enemy-addicted Logic Vices and enemy-driven intellectual Perversions, apparently…🙂

    As regards important but subtle differences, be my guest, to find out… (WHY I believe a «composite name» IS the ideal solution – irrespectively of the fact I don’t find it SO important)…

    _____________

    …το απλό αποτέλεσμα είναι οι Σέρβοι μούλωξαν.

    (TRANSLATION: the result was that Serbs became much more stubborn(?) what is «μούλωξαν»? – i.e. after NATO aggression)…

    Serb aggression was far more LETHAL and FIERCE long before 1995 and the Srebrenica Massacre – read the Srebrenica Genocide blog, and many other sources, and -trust me- you WILL find out.

    _____________
    P.S.
    Replying to THIS comment:
    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/dr-hoares-balkan-excesses-need-anti-nationalist-critics/#comment-27069

    @j95
    One important difference between me and the nationalist attempt to «compromise», is that I supported and STILL support the «composite name solution», as an IDEAL and FAIR solution, right from the start, on the basic of PRINCIPLES; principles that include the RECOGNITION of the Slavic Macedonian people also in Greece as a minority, again right from the start, NOT after international pressures and negotiations made this step necessary….

    Another important difference is that my MAIN goal is to reduce the excesses of nationalism in BOTH countries by making BOTH countries RECOGNIZE each other’s right to have «Macedonians» (BOTH Greeks AND Slavs), equally, and NOT on the basis of ancient origins. (Or else… Medieval origins of Slavs inhabiting the region must also be recognized, as a basis for using the same name).

    A third (and probably the MOST important) difference is that without a composite name I believe that tensions will become worse and worse, ESPECIALLY on the Greek side; I am willing to accept we also have LOTS of lunatics, but I… RESPECT their right to… madness, too!🙂

    A fourth reason (becoming more and more important) is that without a composite name the very nature of «ArcheoMacedonian» nationalism will be an uncontrollable chauvinism, deluded as hell and increasingly hostile to Bulgaria and Greece; Dangerous NOT from the point of view of a military / expansionist threat but from the point of view of psychological damage and HATRED with long-lasting bad effects.\

    There is (always) a fifth reason, that I… forgot !!!😆

  108. (j95)

    «It is true. The official administrative name was “Northern Greece”, apparently because we wanted to emphasize the greekness of the place. “Macedonia” was just a geographical term, usually signifying the “historic” macedonia (i.e. Yugoslav Macedonia+Greek Macedonia+Bulgarian Macedonia).»

    Macedonia as a *geographic division* (geographiko diamerisma – these are not administrative regions I believe but so what?) within Greece has existed long before the 80s.

    As far as Greek «peripheries» are concerned, as we know, there are «Western Macedonia», «Central Macedonia» and «Eastern Macedonia and Thrace». These, like all other Greek «peripheries», have only existed since 1987.

    You’re referring to the «Ministry of Northern Greece» which changed its name to «Ministry of Macedonia AND Thrace», in 1985. I think you’re forgetting about things such as the «Γενική Διοίκηση Μακεδονίας» – «General Administration of Macedonia» (not sure how to exactly translate it) though, no?

    So, I do find the whole «1989» line of reasoning spurious.

    The quip about 300BC, albeit funny, is supposed to be a strawman of sorts?🙂

    If I got anything wrong, feel free to correct me. j95, ξεψαγμένος, omadeon. And Airetikos of course.😉

  109. @Yep
    Our friend j95 will present the MOST amazing Hoare-like logic «constructions» to prove that «Macedonians» are ALWAYS right, and Greeks are ALWAYS idiotic chauvinists. I tend to… agree on the latter, but generally dispute very strongly the former…🙂

    ___
    Airetikos ALSO thinks everyone is MORE-OR-LESS deluded, but this is because they believe in God, mostly. (hehe)

    (just making this up; …j95 THINKS that Airetikos is a nationalist but this is because he ALWAYS tries to prove it, gets him angry, and extracts angry reactions. Now, since -according to j95- ANYONE who gets angry when teased, IS a nationalist, THEN it follows that AIretikos MUST be a nationalist).

    Go figure… (we’ re a wonderful bunch, aren’t we?)😆

  110. I have to admit, I’m a bit confused now. I did take a look at the site of the Ministry of Macedonia and Thrace and the first minister under that name, rather than «of Northern Greece» seems to be Ioannis Papadopoulos…but some sources claim that the name was changed in 1988, under Papathemelis.

    In any case, I don’t think that changes the strength of the «1989» argument but it’d be nice to have some clarification on the matter by someone who knows for sure.

  111. Well,
    Yep,
    I really don’t know WHEN the specific Ministry changed its name but I do remember that this ministry existed BEFORE the «name dispute» bullshit…

    I also remember that Macedonia was TRULY promoted as a prominent region of Greece with great ancient history bla, bla, bla and I used to… yawn at school SECRETLY thinking that a guy whose only remarkable contribution to civilisation was CONQUERING people, burning entire cities and sleeping around (didn’t even know he did this ALSO with men, at the time -hehe)…
    …must be a Great Asshole.

    I think they INVESTED lots and lots of energy boasting so much about ancient history that this was shattered quite severely later on; it took years to recover. I recovered almost immediately, not only because I basically didn’t give a fuck about military aspects of antiquity, but because in the meantime I married a Polish woman, fell in love and also fell in love with slavic phonetic sounds. I thought they were more exciting than Greek sounds…🙂

    ________
    Hoare’s claim that they changed the name of the ministry to «DELIBERATELY PROVOKE» etc. is -sorry to say- bullshit…

    They were WORRIED that they might be provoked so they acted DEFENSIVELY LIKE HELL (the exact opposite, in other words).

  112. The ENTIRE HISTORY of the Slavic population of Greek Macedonia was UNKNOWN to me, at the time (when the name dispute broke out)… I had NO idea that Slavs ever even existed in that region (neither did lots of other young people at the time).
    Only older generations KNEW, because of the Civil War, and they generally tried to keep SILENT…

    I think there IS such a thing as «national KARMA«:
    -We PAID for what we did, when… «Macedonian» TRICKSTERS shrewdly played a Game of History-Theft, TAKING REVENGE for the other part of History, which we had ALSO stolen…

    THIS is how I see it, even today, more or less. Sorry if anyone is offended. This is NOT a nationalist blog…

    ____
    I also think it’s a DISGRACE to CELEBRATE those bloody wars. NOBODY in the bloody Balkans should be «proud of» those bloody Balkan Wars.

    Proud for WHAT? For the THOUSANDS who were murdered, lots of them in cold blood? For THEIR cities we burned? for OUR cities they ALSO burned? For the women our grandfathers raped? For the women THEIR grandfathers ALSO raped? For the SHITTY Macedonian land, only useful as a SWAMP to produce FOOD, with peasants who were EXPENDABLE CREATURES for OverLords?
    I AM VERY GLAD NOT TO be Macedonian AT ALL (either Greek, OR Slav).
    LONG LIVE… Hamoutzia (derogatory term for Southern Greece)😆 !!!
    The big fat beasts of Nationalism act like Psychic Vampires drinking our blood. To HELL with heroes, of ALL sides… Greece should be the SWITZERLAND of the Balkans, as well as Europe’s MOST anti-nationalist state. It should base itself on HUMANIST CULTURE and dictate to the «barbarian» world (IF we like it, if we prefer to see it in a «patriotic» way) HUMANIST principles, HUMAN RIGHTS, DIRECT democracy, and so on. We should become THE LIGHT, the ANTI-NATIONALIST LIGHT… whatever. There is something inside me trying to SCREAM it out loud: that we are ALREADY beyond nationality.

  113. News from the Srebrenica Genocide blog:

    Dr. Hoare (not knowing YET at all my private apologies and explanations, sent to him later on by e-mail; ALSO unaware of my peace-making reply in that blog held up by the MODERATION queue) had made some rather… nasty new comments there, which in ANY blog discussion would signify nothing but WAR, WAR, WAR. E.g.

    Marko Attila Hoare said…

    Omadeon called me a ‘prostitute’ on his blog, so I’m afraid he has no right to complain about being harshly treated here. He has shown himself to be incapable of conducting a debate in a civilised manner.

    Attacking someone for having the name ‘Attila’ is simply an expression of anti-Turkish or anti-Asian racism. Anyone who makes such attacks has no right to call themselves an ‘anti-nationalist’.
    Unless, of course, they make similar attacks on people who use names like ‘Alexander’,’Philip’, ‘Louis’, ‘Nicholas’, etc., which were the names of various European aggressors whose human rights records were not better than that of Attila the Hun. But I do not believe Omadeon has ever attacked anyone for being called ‘Alexander’ or ‘Philip’.

    For the record, I was named after the Hungarian poet Attila Jozsef

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila_J%C3%B3zsef

    Only someone with a very profound ignorance of Europe’s cultural heritage would associate the name ‘Attila’ with barbarity and war-crimes. Or possibly someone with an aversion to things that sound Turkish, which I suspect is the case in this instance.
    Thursday, August 27, 2009

    […comments by dr. Hoare FIERCELY supporting FYROM omitted for brevity…]

    As an update to my comments above, I notice that Omadeon wrote a letter to the New York Times last year, in which he:

    1) Asserted the Greekness of the Ancient Macedonians and of Alexander the Great;

    2) Demanded that the Macedonians change their name to ‘Slav Macedonians’;

    3) Attacked the New York Times for its criticism of Greek policy.

    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2008/04/04/the-new-york-times-editorial-board-of-imbeciles/

    If that’s ‘anti-nationalism’, then I’m Alexander the Great.

    Friday, August 28, 2009

    However, 2 e-mails by me and 2 e-mails by him in private had (in the meantime) reached a positive result, so I posted a comment with the SUMMARY of our… PEACE AGREEMENT🙂 in that blog (awaiting approval by moderators):

    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html

    Well, since Dr. Hoare and I have (in the meantime) used private e-mails to CLARIFY and RESOLVE certain issues, here is a summary:

    I would never -even remotely- have an evil intent to call Dr. Hoare «a prostitute». This WAS a tragic misunderstanding, based on… another big misunderstanding AND a big gaffe (on my part): I simply had NO idea that «Attila» is an actual REAL name, in so many countries. I didn’t even know it’s a valid name in Turkey, imagining (about the few occasions when I encountered a person with that name) that this name celebrated the… Turkish invasion in Cyprus or the destruction of Europe by Attila the Hun (which I found puzzling).
    So, I speculated very frivolously (I must admit) that OTHERS MIGHT try to insult Dr. Hoare by making a dirty PUN about his name!

    My apologies to Dr. Hoare were long and detailed. I think he was very pleased with them; ALSO saying (in the end) that he NO LONGER thinks of me as a «chauvinist» (which was very honourable of him)!

    (wow…) It’s UNBELIEVABLE how much unnecessary conflict exists in the internet because people just do NOT bother to COMMUNICATE, but we DID, and we succeeded 100%!🙂 (I wish… Balkan countries DID THE SAME -hehe)

    Now… as regards Alexander being Greek or Macedonia being «forced» to change its name, AGAIN there are misunderstandings, caused by the fact that my detailed thoughts on these issues are in OTHER posts (which Dr. Hoare hasn’t read).

    1) I do NOT believe anyone should be «forced», but -instead- I believe in AN AGREEMENT with Greece that does NOT cause long-lasting hatred by nationalists; WHAT name is chosen I have NO intent of imposing, but only made a _suggestion_, among many other possible names (like everyone else who wants negotiations to SUCCEED).
    2) As regards the «Greekness of Alexander», although I personally despise him (and made a mockery of him) I DO believe he was an ancient Greek. I also believe we should STOP thinking about the past and achieve in THE PRESENT a lasting peace.

    ALL I did in THAT post, was to chastise a bit the NY Times, for being TOO one-sided. In fact, that post’s DISCUSSION was one of the MOST MODERATE AND SUCCESFULL PEACE-MAKING DISCUSSIONS about the «name dispute», in which people from BOTH countries participated creatively to RESOLVE certain issues… WITHOUT flames or insults, in hundreds of comments!🙂

    Well, if anyone STILL thinks of me as a «nationalist» after these clarifications, ALL I have to do NOW, is… refer that person to Dr. Hoare who… understands me NOW, MUCH, MUCH MORE! :-))))))

    PLEASE CONTINUE without anything else Off-topic!
    Unnecessary Conflicts have been PROVED… Unnecessary!🙂

  114. P.S. I also wrote to him another (3rd) private e-mail, in which I made the suggestion that we STOP discussing the «name dispute» in that particular blog-post, since this discussion is OFF-TOPIC.

    I disagree in fact, with most of his positions (on the «name dispute») but I think that the continuation of the discussion in ANOTHER post or context would probably be a VERY interesting debate, between us (even though I am ONLY a humble amateur).
    My INTUITION about him tells me that be DOES believe everything he says sincerely, and is also very passionate about these beliefs, but I also think that the FIRST step towards any successful negotiation or peace-agreement is to recognize the Other’s AUTHENTICITY, in the Other’s beliefs.

    If -on the other hand- there is anyone inauthentic in anything, this should be derivable from the debate itself and from the general context of it (or other objective evidence), but it can NEVER result from easy labels, demonizing mutual attributions and misunderstandings….

  115. Basically Omadeon, the reason why they made a Macedonia & Thrace ministry is the same reason why they made an Aegean ministry:

    To hire more bureaucrats (the public sector is the most-preferred employer in Greece, as it’s practically impossible to be fired from your job).

    OK, the declared reason was to promote a decentralization of the governance, to not have EVERY public service’s headquarters in Athens and blah blah blah.

    Omadeon, is Dr. Hoare ENTIRELY stupid? He takes MY snide remarks (by the way, friends of mine who are well-versed in matters diplomatic and historical consider him to be a laughing stock and Gruevsky’s sock-puppet – AT THE VERY BEST) and attributes them to you. This shows beyond any doubt (reasonable or not) that it’s entirely impossible to have a civilized discussion and discourse with him and, of course, he’s a liability for the academic world.

    And if he goes out again and says YOU said it, he’s going to prove my point exactly, i.e. that he doesn’t act in good faith but is – as Ξεψαγμενος pointed out – AGENDA-DRIVEN and NOT FACTS-DRIVEN. Now, I don’t know what axe he’s got to grind regarding Greece and I don’t give a flying fuck. Perhaps a Greek guy stole his girlfriend while in the university – if that’s the case, it’s time he got over it and, well, it’s HIS problem, NOT mine. Too bad I can’t suggest any good therapist in Croatia or England or wherever.

    Now, why would a SERIOUS and PRESTIGIOUS historian, a man of intellect and science go out and OPENLY support the paranoid ultra-nationalism of the OFFICIAL FYROMian government if he did not identify himself with it? In general, avid supporters of nationalist/chauvinist mumbo-jumbo (such as the «God created the Macedonoids» video, on which I’ve yet to see any critique from Mr. Hoare) ARE paranoid themselves. Just look at the multitude of Greek nationalist/fascist trolls that come here: they’re all terminal cases of complete and utter insanity. Bonkers. Cuckoo. Batshit. Looney Tunes. Madder than Mad Jack McMad, who won the Mr Madman competition in the days of king George III in England (domo arigato, Mr. Edmund Blackadder).

    Why would a REASONABLE, EDUCATED and SOPHISTICATED person, who managed to get a PhD from a prestigious academic institute team up with the lunatics of Skopje if not because he finds his true self among these fanatics?

    Why would a REASONABLE, EDUCATED and SOPHISTICATED person CHOOSE to go with the ultra-nationalist riff-raff of Gruevsky’s gang instead of working things out with reasonable, moderate, educated and sophisticated people who DESPISE fanaticism?

    Maybe because the aforementioned person feels inferior to his peers and, at the same time, wants to lead people and play the role of the hero? Maybe because he KNOWS that what he says is bullcrap and can’t stand up to ANY scrutiny, so he decides to peddle his junk to the intellectually challenged, functionally illiterate mob that’s already crazed with nationalist, irredentist, fanatical zeal and is ready to believe even that donkeys fly and come equipped with IRIS-T air-to-air missiles?

    As for j95, he’s slandered many other people as «nationalists» merely because they reject ALL nationalisms – he tries to present himself as an «anti-nationalist» by SUPPORTING other nationalisms. He’s quite a nutjob, actually. A bit like a homophobic closet homosexual who doesn’t want to admit his homosexuality and so goes out and becomes a violent persecutor of homosexuals (see J. Edgar Hoover or Adolf Hitler) out of his own self-hatred.

  116. As for j95, he’s slandered many other people as “nationalists” merely because they reject ALL nationalisms

    Dude: Macedonians have zillion minority parties.Our official policy is that minorities do not exist. This is amazingly nationalist. So is believing that Macedonians are horn-headed monsters simply because that’s the way The Nation’s Enemies are supposed to be. I don’t care if you believe that you are rejecting the greek nationalist thought system. You’re up to your knees in it. End of story.

  117. Look, the peddler of ideological fraud is BACK. Still trying to present yourself as an «anti-nationalist» when you SUPPORT nationalisms (and we know that the only reason you support these nationalisms are that they are not your own country’s nationalism – so, you delude yourself and try to fool others into thinking you are NOT a nationalist)? You crappy hypocritical slanderer…

  118. Our official policy is that minorities do not exist.

    Actually our official-official policy is «minorities do not exist even if the European Court of Human Rights says otherwise».

  119. Hi,
    I am writing from ANOTHER pc and will return home much later on.

    First of all, there was an e-mail reply by Dr. Hoare to my 3rd mail, as well as a new post in his BLOG, too, about… The «Macedonian issue» and the «name dispute».

    On the whole, although I disagree with many things he says in that post (NOT all of them -hehe) I would also say that his references to me personally and to my ideas are NOT derogatory or offensive, in ANY way… We are in a process of CREATIVE COMMUNICATION, not a process of… mutual demonisation. Please respect this…

    He gave me fair credit in his post for certain things, while criticising me for other things. THIS IS NORMAL in life, if people… could COMMUNICATE MORE instead of indulging in endless fights!🙂

    Anyway… Dr. Hoare’s post is not about me but about «MACEDONIA» (which for him UNFORTUNATELY means ONLY… the COUNTRY calling itself Macedonia)…

    If you wish to comment, about this hot topic, in Dr. Hoare’s blog… BE WARNED: Comments are closed.

    If you can be a BIT patient, MAYBE there will be a new post by me about this issue; which means postponing a MUCH MORE INTERESTING POST FOR ME PERSONALLY hehe which I have in mind, titled as follows:

    «DE-Constructing Demonization without feeding Deamons».

    (go figure…)

    Now…
    @Airetikos
    @j95
    I will deal with what you said LATER, for the moment…

    omadeon:
    I’d say that Greece was not the “bully” at the time, but the fear-ridden BIG FAT CHICKEN!
    j95:
    The actual difference being…?

    hmm……………..
    It’s sort of… hmm…
    like the different between an unemployed barefoot but angry Buffallo Bill and «Kentucky Fried Chicken»…

    GO FIGURE!!!🙂

  120. A few thoughts about nationalism….
    ___________________________

    First of all, I changed my mind. I no longer wish to present myself AS IF I am 100% an anti-nationalist. NOT because I am a nationalist, but because there is ALWAYS some element of nationalism, of various forms, in SO MANY things, that (as our friend «yep» here said) VERY VERY FEW people can be said to be completely free of nationalism (he didn’t phrase it this way, he said «maybe there are a few hundred genuine anti-nationalists in the world» – or something like that)…

    OK, so if you really want an «iso-standard certified» kind of «anti-nationalist», I fail to qualify. E.g. I care TOO much about Peace to put anti-nationalism… above it, as a value, in priority!

    Another example:
    I think that when NATO and the EU intervened in Bosnia, they were EVEN LESS «anti-nationalist». Many people think the exact opposite; that they intervened ONLY for their own petty nationalist (or imperialist) interests. I don’t share this view, but neither do I share the opposite view. GO FIGURE!🙂

    Another example:
    Most of what Airetikos said today, I tend to agree with it…

    QUESTION: Is LOYALTY to the cause of HELPING a collectivity which you feel is unjustly treated, a kind of nationalism? I don’t really know, but this kind of loyalty nearly everyone who is a DECENT human being, tends to have…

    We are ALL nationalists to SOME extent, even when we THINK we are free of it. It’s like… pollution in the air. You may live in the mountain, but there is STILL some of it. Perhaps just a few molecules. Absolute non-nationalism is simply IMPOSSIBLE.

    The real problem is different: WHAT do we DO about it? Do we think of it as a good thing (I don’t) or do we think of it as a form of pollution, perhaps even like… cigarette smoking (for instance) hehe….
    HAVE another cigarette. REMEMBER though: It IS harmful for your health!

    WHY is it harmful?
    WHAT is the main problem about it (nationalist… NICOTINE)?

    Well, here is ONE problem:
    One nation’s Nationalism is NOT of any value to OTHER nations. Therefore, it is absolutely USELESS e.g. in NEGOTIATIONS.

    If we want Peace with country X, it’s useless to bring up… nationalist arguments in the bargaining process with this country, because they mean… ABSOLUTELY NULL for this other country. (what a childish mistake, huh? Yet… it is perhaps a CONTINUALLY recurring mistake in Greek politics, for a number of years in the past; COMBINED of course, with… servitude to «big powers» like Britain or the US – depending on which historical era we’re discussing).

    WHY is Greek diplomacy ineffective?
    SOME people say «because it is not independent; it’s always secretly servile to the Big Guys in the world» (etc).
    Today I discovered that (although the former may be true) it might ALSO be worthwhile to think as a possible cause something else:
    – the TOTAL ABSENCE in Greek THINKING of a NON-nationalist WAY of REASONING.

    So ANY Greek government is bound to VACILLATE, between two extremes:
    1) At one moment to behave like «yes-men»
    2) At another moment to behave like «We are right and you are wrong because we are we, and you are you» (the ESSENCE of nationalism, which -as I said- for OTHER countries MEANS NOTHING WHATSOEVER).

    The point is therefore to START thinking logically and in a non-nationalist, unbiased way, in Greece. EVEN IF what one cares most is one’s country’s best interest, or whatever…

    Now…
    Nationalism has been analysed also by professionals (like Gelner – whose book I ALREADY started reading weeks ago, advancing slowly and carefully); I am only a student, NOT an expert.

    My position however is PERHAPS interesting, because we are all living in REAL societies and our thoughts HAVE value; not everything can be decided only by experts.

    I was saying to Dennis on the phone (another friend who comments in this blog) that…
    «We are all nationalists; but it’s important to specify… ABOUT WHAT? – About our country? Our favourite football team? or our girlfriend / lover?»

    Identification with a collectivity is a VERY general process. Not just nationalism. Do you LOVE the world? Then PERHAPS you are a… species-nationalist?
    Do you LOVE trance music? Then perhaps you are a trance music nationalist?🙂

    NATIONS are COLLECTIVITIES, above all.

    The actual interactions, communications and thought patterns (or «morphogenetic fields» – according to Sheldrake) that constitute a people’s «collective consciousness» are FAR MORE complicated than simplistic sociologists can imagine (or simplistic nationalists or even simplistic anti-nationalists).

    More later…

  121. To me, things are very simple: I support my country’s long-term interests (economy, social cohesion, sovereignty, nature, its culture and its reputation), but reject both the yes-man attitude and the nationalist stances, but ALWAYS with a big fat red line beyond which I would not retreat; a red line based on reason (and this is where Hoare fails in the most miserable way, proving himself undeserving of any academic credentials and kudos, since he identifies Macedonia as a geographic place and as a people with FYROM alone; note his reaction to MY implying that I could make a «prostitute» pun with his surname, which he idioticalle attributed to you and which proves that he KNOWS full well that he’s basically a hired gun for the FYROMian nationalist propaganda) and not on mythology.

    Note how self-proclaimed «anti-nationalists» tend to ADOPT nationalisms hostile to that of their country instead of rejecting ALL nationalisms. This I call FRAUD and you can guess which persons I’d classify as fraudsters when it comes to ideologies.

    P.S. Hoare’s «no comments allowed» policy is seemingly convenient, but proves he’s afraid of scrutiny and of being called on his bullshit. I’m sure he’s fuming right now, because some «vulgar chauvinists from Greece» are ripping new rectums in his pro-nationalist rants and have started to slowly bust the myth and the hype that he has clothed his ideological and intellectual nakedness with.

  122. And reason, in case Hoare has forgotten (although I’m more inclined to think he DELIBERATELY tries to make people forget this simple fact, being the hardline propagandist that he is), means 1+1=2.

    Oh, and do you know how scientists call those scientists who, rather that serve objectivity, research and the finding of facts, sell out and offer their services to various agendas and irrational lobbies (such as nationalist propaganda)? Prostitutes. Like those boffins who, for the sakw of their own profit, promote crap like fuel cells and… hydrogen power fot automobiles, because they want to sell nuclear power stations that will provide the electricity for the production of hydrogen. Eco-fraudsters…

  123. And reason, in case Hoare has forgotten (although I’m more inclined to think he DELIBERATELY tries to make people forget this simple fact, being the hardline propagandist that he is), means 1+1=2.

    Oh, and do you know how scientists call those scientists who, rather that serve objectivity, research and the finding of facts, sell out and offer their services to various agendas and irrational lobbies (such as nationalist propaganda)? Prostitutes. Like those boffins who, for the sake of their own profit, promote crap like fuel cells and… hydrogen power for automobiles, because they want to sell nuclear power stations that will provide the electricity for the production of hydrogen. Eco-fraudsters…

  124. @Airetikos
    THANKS for saying those things; very useful for honest communication (and I still haven’t discussed what you said earlier)

    In his new post Dr. Hoare has admitted (with impressive honesty) that I’m NOT a vulgar chauvinist..
    (Of course j95 being a… sophist had hastily gambled,to agree with that label, thereby losing MOST of his… «money invested«)😆 Of course, O.T.O.H. Dr. Hoare said he does NOT regard me as an anti-nationalist, either (so not all the money invested was lost…)

    Oh dear! THAT was unpleasant, for about…. 0.666 seconds, but in the next 1,3333 seconds, I realized that… It would be hypocritical of me to be offended now, considering the fact he was NOT offended by own… claim that he «bolsters ultra-nationalism» (which is worse)! 🙂
    Read his post, ESPECIALLY the 2nd half; Good starting point for rational analysis and civilized, fair debate!🙂
    Doesn’t matter if I disagree strongly with some FACTS he believes, which others believe (or have proved) wrong…

    Anyway,
    I am still OUTSIDE my base; can’t edit yet anything…

    Here is the link to Dr. Hoare’s post AGAIN:
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/macedonia-and-greece-what-is-the-basis-for-a-reconciliation/

  125. Here is the SECOND PART of the post, which I consider MOST IMPORTANT:

    Omadeon accuses me of opposing reconciliation between Macedonia and Greece, and of not being even-handed in my treatment of Macedonian and Greek nationalism. I make no pretence at being even-handed: I am on the side of the victim (Macedonia) and against the aggressor (Greece), and will always encourage the national resistance of a victim against an aggressor. Siding with a victim against an aggressor is the only honourable position to take: it means siding with Cyprus against Turkey in 1974; with Croatia against Serbia in 1991; with Bosnia against both Serbia and Croatia in 1992-95; with Chechnya against Russia in 1994 and 1999; and with Georgia against Russia in 2008. There can be no ‘even-handedness’ in treating an aggressor and a victim, or in treating their respective nationalisms. Greek nationalism is threatening Macedonia. Macedonian nationalism is not threatening Greece. The two are not equivalent.

    As for the question of ‘reconciliation’, this can only rightfully be based on justice, not on the capitulation of the weaker side to the stronger. The only just compromise between Greece and Macedonia would be along the following lines:

    1) The Macedonian nation and language, and the Greek nation and language, exist. Anyone who says they do not is an anti-Macedonian or anti-Greek chauvinist.

    2) Macedonia and Greece both have the right to call themselves what they want, and to define their national identities as they wish.

    3) The people of the Republic of Macedonia, Greek Macedonia and Bulgarian Macedonia have an equal right to call themselves ‘Macedonian’ and to lay claim to the heritage of Ancient Macedonia and of Alexander the Great, if that is what they wish.

    4) Greeks and Macedonians alike are descended from a mixture of ancient Macedonians, Slavs and others. The common ethnic heritage of the two nations should be stressed, not denied, by those seeking reconciliation.

    5) The symbol at the start of this post – the Star of Vergina – is dear to both Greeks and Macedonians and belongs to them both. Two nations that love the same symbols and revere the same ancient historical figures should naturally be friends.

    Anyone who calls themselves an ‘anti-nationalist’, irrespective of whether they are Greek or Macedonian, should have no difficulty subscribing to these principles.

  126. P.S. Getting back home in an hour or less. Will correct mistakes, insert «blockquote» symbols, etc.

    My guess is that VERY FEW people in Greece can actually understand the need for an entirely different approach to the «Macedonian problem» than nationalist approaches, which I think are doomed to fail, sooner or later, leaving the main core of the problem itself untouched, incorrigible, perhaps even fatal…

    ONLY an anti-nationalist critique, with anti-nationalist motives can EVER succeed, to safeguard future Peace.
    And -in general- Greece doesn’t yet have such a critique…
    (when it DOES, it might be TOO late; it’s ALREADY late)

  127. igenea is a private company, contacting «DNA analysis» on demand, not a serious source.

    Ancient macedonians’ conscience was indiscernible from the rest of the greek world of antiquity sharing the same language and customs, according to Mr.Hoare’s compatriot and notable historian, N. G. L. Hammond.
    Apparently, even britons can be ‘greek chauvinists’.

    It’s one thing denying sb’s existence and another disputing sb’s identity.
    Jakob Fallmerayer was a German historian of the 19th century, denying any (genetic) linkage between modern and ancient Greeks. He didn’t deny that modern greeks existed, but he disputed they were ‘greeks’ in the classical sense.
    He wasn’t a ‘chauvinist’, rather a progressive man for his age, given his political views. (Whether he was right or not is another issue.)

    Black and brown englishmen may claim Britain’s cultural heritage for what it is, but they don’t tend to distort it.
    If they claim that the Duke of Wellington was African or Pakistani, then the whole thing of one’s ‘self-identification’ reaches its (logical) limits.

    Alexander the Great belongs to Iranians, Afghans and Pakistanis, too.

    So does Julius Caesar, with respect to many other peoples.
    But he was Roman. It’s a fact.

    Greek nationalism is threatening Macedonia. Macedonian nationalism is not threatening Greece.

    Greece fought a civil war in 1949 mainly conducted in (greek) Macedonia. It was by the result of this war that she went keep its northern province, in other case becoming a communist federacy as envisaged by the USSR.
    Macedonian nationalism is the pursuit of this «re-unification’, ie. expansionist by nature.
    Greece, on the other hand, has no territorial claims against the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

  128. Hoare says: «Ironically, in terms of their genetic origins, non-Slavic-speaking Greece and Albania are more Slavic (http://say-macedonia.blogspot.com/2008/10/genetic-comparison-of-balkan-nations.html) in their origins than the modern Macedonians and Bulgarians»

    If you check the link you will find that it’s a nationalist Macedonian blog that cites a fraud of a «genetic study» (it’s actually not a genetic study at all) by «IGENEA» that supposedly traces ancient «tribal groupings» such as «Illyrian», «Macedonian» and «Greek».

    I’m not saying that the «more Slavic» (what does that mean anyway? isn’t Slavic a language family?) part is untrue but it’s important to note, I repeat again, what a fraud of a source (the nationalist citing of a worthless «study» – again, not really one) he cites to support his conclusions.

    In other words, genes don’t really matter (I agree) but as long as I can find a source supporting my point I will use it no matter how unreliable it is.

    The rest of his arguments get better admittedly, but this one really jumps at you; I expected more.

  129. Let’s face it and let’s be blunt; an «academic» and «historian» who tries to substantiate his arguments by citing fraudsters and pranksters simply isn’t worth taking seriously. If a Greek linguist appeared before a convention and tried to brag about a Greek vocabulary of six million words, citing the «Hellenic Quest» hoax (which was stupidly propagated by various Greek media) as his source, s/he would become a laughing stock and would immediately lose face FOR EVER. I have no idea how Mr. Hoare got his PhD, but his arguments, his sources and his reasoning have NOTHING to do with science and belong in the realm of the ridiculous, along with von Däniken’s UFO theories. Since mere bloggers can tear Mr. Hoare’s pseudoscience to shreds, imagine what his fate would be if he were to be scrutinized by scientists of his own field. It becomes all too clear that Mr. Hoare is «on a mission» and is writing this sort of bullshit in order to put money in his pocket, denying whatever prestige his studies and his efforts against Milosevic afforded him. Of course, he’s old enough, big enough and ugly enough to make his own decisions and calls and to defend himself; thus, it’s not my job to tell him what to do. If he wants to keep spewing this crap, it’s his call. And I don’t want to stop him from making a fool out of himself; it’s awfully convenient for Greece to have opponents with logic so abysmal and arguments so weak as the ones offered by Mr. Hoare.

    In this case, a pragmatic Greek nationalist and a pragmatic Greek would both agree to THANK Mr. Hoare for proving that FYROMian claims (and their supporters) are ludicrous, unreasonable and not worth taking seriously at all.

  130. @peter
    Sorry for the delay for your comment’s approval. I was away; ALL your next comments will appear immediately…
    Welcome and congratulations for your points; very reasonable AND 100% valid, all of them – I think.
    A «problem» with such rational fact-based arguments (and nationalism-free, as well, …low-fat, etc –hehe) is that biased people pretend NOT to have seen them;
    while others might not even notice them. -Well, *I* did…🙂
    @Heretic: BTW, where is Mr.frog now? in the pond? swimming?🙂
    more in my next comment(s)…
    ALL THE BEST to you!🙂

    @Yep
    WELL SAID; the particular link to that particular DNA study has been repeatedly provided by Dr. Hoare (who… unfortunately is NO biologist 😉 -and NEITHER is that «Say Macedonia» blog… I find it also extremely stupid silly as a blog title, like… «say Cheeeese»...🙂 )

  131. @Heretic
    PLEASE, there is ONE thing you keep saying in so many different ways, which *I* think is not productive; we’re NOT trying to convince people who are… already convinced; moreover, people who are convinced FOR WRONG REASONS (=»AD HOMINEM» arguments) are of NO USE.

    What you say here can NOT be used as an argument, I think:

    Let’s face it and let’s be blunt; an “academic” and “historian” who tries to substantiate his arguments by citing fraudsters and pranksters simply isn’t worth taking seriously.

    Please do NOT put ANY more ironical quotes in «academic» or «historian». It MAY be that he is wrong as a historian, or a bad academic. It may ALSO be that he is passionate… half-Balkanian, JUST LIKE US, believing passionately what he writes and NOT seeing some things.

    But… LET THE READER JUDGE, for heaven’s sake!🙂

    (VERY sorry to say this, but DO you realize that THIS post has been linked by Dr. Hoare’s blog and is PROBABLY READ by his friends and colleagues? If one thinks they will be persuaded AS EASILY as THIS, I HAVE to disagree…)

  132. I have to say this once and for all. DEMONISATION IS OUT.
    We ought to STICK TO OUR PRINCIPLES applying them to ourselves.

    A LIBEL of ad hominem attacks, EVEN if based on facts, achieves nothing (or WORSE than nothing; it makes people who are ALREADY BIASED in favour of the demonised person to support that person even more).

    Besides, I am sick and tired of ALL the Greek nationalist crap, tireless, tiresome… tirades and screams and shouts… about so-and-so being anti-greek (now we have «is not worth taking seriously» and all the other crap…)

    I quite frankly don’t give a damn if someone is anti-Greek, or biased, or a bad academic, or even an agent of the CIA; this is IRRELEVANT to the truth or falsity of his VIEWS….
    THIS IS NOT my way of debating things; (one more reason why the phrase «incapable of civilized debate» was unjust – when initially applied to *me*).

    VERY few people in Greece CAN participate in civilised debate; ALL they care about is DEMONIZATIONS.

    However, Dr. Hoare had the honesty to withdraw those labels (like «vulgar chauvinist»). Well, why don’t we do him a SIMILAR favour and deal with FACTS rather than attacks on his personality (whether valid or invalid)?

  133. …And there ARE facts.
    I repeat Peter’s comment, which was clouded by subsequent comments…

    igenea is a private company, contacting «DNA analysis» on demand, not a serious source.

    Which means that the client provides the SPECIMENS. EVERY RESULT REFLECTS THE SELECTION OF THE SPECIMENS.
    And there is every reason to DISTRUST a client like FYROM’s authorities, who are also responsible for the «Rosetta Stone» (fraud-) paper, alleging that… the language of the Rosetta stone was «ancient Macedonian«; as far as I know this paper was NEVER ACCEPTED by the international academic community. (UPDATE: here is a trustworthy detailed refutation of the Rosetta stone fraud).

    Ancient macedonians’ conscience was indiscernible from the rest of the greek world of antiquity sharing the same language and customs, according to Mr.Hoare’s compatriot and notable historian, N. G. L. Hammond.
    Apparently, even britons can be ‘greek chauvinists’.

    It’s one thing denying sb’s existence and another disputing sb’s identity.
    Jakob Fallmerayer was a German historian of the 19th century, denying any (genetic) linkage between modern and ancient Greeks. He didn’t deny that modern greeks existed, but he disputed they were ‘greeks’ in the classical sense.
    He wasn’t a ‘chauvinist’, rather a progressive man for his age, given his political views. (Whether he was right or not is another issue.)

    Black and brown englishmen may claim Britain’s cultural heritage for what it is, but they don’t tend to distort it.
    If they claim that the Duke of Wellington was African or Pakistani, then the whole thing of one’s ‘self-identification’ reaches its (logical) limits.

    Alexander the Great belongs to Iranians, Afghans and Pakistanis, too.

    So does Julius Caesar, with respect to many other peoples.
    But he was Roman. It’s a fact.

    Greek nationalism is threatening Macedonia. Macedonian nationalism is not threatening Greece.

    Greece fought a civil war in 1949 mainly conducted in (greek) Macedonia. It was by the result of this war that she went keep its northern province, in other case becoming a communist federacy as envisaged by the USSR.
    Macedonian nationalism is the pursuit of this «re-unification’, ie. expansionist by nature.
    Greece, on the other hand, has no territorial claims against the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

    I will discuss the other points in next comments.

  134. Greek nationalism is threatening Macedonia. Macedonian nationalism is not threatening Greece.

    I have seen myself INNUMERABLE «Macedonian» posters viciously threatening Greece; the whole concept of a «unified Macedonia» is an irredentist threat.
    Now, people always say «how is a small country like this goind to attack a big and strong country like that», and so on.

    Well, nationalist hatred will have long-term harmful side-effects. This hatred (on their part) comes from the distortions of history that make the people in FYROM feel victims of Greece. Well, SOME of them HAVE been true victims.

    Greece tried to COVER UP this fact (that concerns a significant number of people, including the Civil War refugees) and ended… harming its STRONGEST ARGUMENT: Geographic Macedonia was MOSTLY MUSLIM; it did NOT BELONG to ANY kind of Macedonians, as a majority population, since both Greeks AND Slavs were minorities in that region (of wider geographic Macedonia) at the time of the Balkan wars.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think ALL distortions of history must stop, Greece must be completely open about everything, in order that the MORE severe historical distortions by FYROM can ALSO be exposed.

    The VERY claim (by Greek nationalism) that our Macedonia «was liberated», FEEDS their claim (of FYROM nationalism) that Macedonia was «enslaved», as well as their current FICTION that «Macedonia IS occupied» (today).

    As a result, e.g. Greek tourists were recently beaten-up by fanatical young «Macedonians».

    WHY encourage THIS kind of hatred?

    ___
    There is also another kind of hatred, perhaps even WORSE, in Greece, against «evil Skopians». This ALSO comes from NOT admitting HISTORICAL TRUTH. If we admitted in public, perhaps also at school, SIMPLE TRUTHS about the geographic region of Macedonia (e.g. that it had MORE Muslims than Macedonians, and that LOTS of non-Muslims were Slavs, etc.) then… fanatical defenders of Greek Macedonia would realize that hatred against «evil Skopians» is largely unjustified…
    They would then SEE the need to NEGOTIATE, right from the start; not wave silly slogans like «Macedonia is Greek». It WAS Greek; But later on in History, it became only PARTLY Greek, as well as only PARTLY Slav, as well as MOSTLY Muslim. The fact that Greek Macedonia was subsequently «Greekified» (through sometimes brutal policies of homogenisation as well as population exchanges) should be accepted AS IT HAPPENED by the Greek population today; then they would become skeptical of any fanaticism towards FYROM, as well as see the ESSENCE of the problem.

    Today, more and more Greeks have become aware of all these facts, which is good.

    Now… HAVE THE citizens of FYROM increased their own objective awareness of all these facts?
    OR… are they being indoctrinated more and more into AGGRESSIVE FICTION based on Historical distortions?
    (THIS issue should become THE most important criterion for Greece to approve and promote FYROM’s entry into the EU. NOT so much the name-issue, which is much, much less important…)

  135. Omadeon, IGENEA can’t base their claims of connections with ancient «tribal units» on genetic research (at least not yet). It’s that simple.

    «Selection of specimens» then doesn’t mean anything since it doesn’t matter whether they are being selective on purpose or not! The guys simply want to fool people into thinking they have some sort of glorious ancient (or «exotic» as is frequently the case with Westerners) heritage and thus make money off of the whole procedure.

    It was disappointing to see such an argument.

    But I disagree with you. Macedonian nationalism would be dangerous if the country were on par with Greece economically, demographically etc. As it is, it’s no danger. Let them parade maps of an ahistorical «united macedonia» around.

    What could happen? I’m seriously asking here, it’s not a rhetorical question.

    Foreign public opinion isn’t unimportant but who cares if some silly Westerners, the few who are actually aware of the existence of a Macedonia, buy into the whole «our homeland was united but now it’s been divided by monarchofascist pigs» crap.

  136. PS to all Westerners: the references to Westerners are meant in good, clean fun but are based on personal observations. Much of what I said about ignorance applies to Greeks, Macedonians and all others on our planet.

    After all, you don’t know whether I’m a member of this imagined «Westerners» in-group or not.🙂

  137. @Yep

    Macedonian nationalism would be dangerous if the country were on par with Greece economically, demographically etc. As it is, it’s no danger. Let them parade maps of an ahistorical “united macedonia” around.

    I DON’T disagree. Actually I didn»t make it CLEAR 100%:

    I really DO NOT see a territorial or military threat for Greece (or Bulgaria – for that matter).

    I see threats of individual hostilities and possible violence by INDIVIDUALS; also bad psychological atmosphere with unknown bad side-effects.
    What is inside the mind affects reality…

    A handful of mad terrorists would be the next step.
    (What a wonderful way, to destabilize EVERYTHING?)

  138. «A handful of mad terrorists would be the next step. What a wonderful way to destabilize EVERYTHING?»

    That’s an interesting thought but I have to admit it still sounds too far-fetched…

    I believe there were some talks between Rainbow Party – Vinozito and Basque parties such as Eusko Alkartasuna and Herri Batasuna but I’m not sure what to make of that.

  139. I’m just pointing out that Mr. Hoare’s writings are entirely alien to science. And indeed, any historian who bases his work on fraud or hoaxes gets invariably ridiculed and stigmatized for life. I would expect such flawed work to come from the likes of Liakopoulos or other pseudoscientists and other pseudohistorians. But from a historian who flies the banner of his academic titles and uses said titles as proof of his work’s quality and his ethics? No way José. You see, getting a PhD is nothing. Do you know how many people out there get PhDs? It’s what you do afterwards that matters. If you don’t rise up to the challenge of maintaining a high standard for your work, you’re finished. And so far Mr. Hoare’s «historical» work is laughable, just like those nutty Zeitgeist theories you rightly took a sledgehammer to. At any rate, I think we’ve already wasted too much time and gray matter on Mr. Hoare. Let us just point out that, like Martin Bernal, he places a certain political agenda before science and facts and this makes him anything but a scientist.

  140. And when ultra-nationalism is mixed with pseudoscience and becomes a state’s official policy, you can expect extremists to go even madder. IF Mr. Hoare truly cared about FYROM and was a true academic, he would have told the country’s government to cut the crap and do something about the real issues, such as the rampant unemployment. Instead, he bolsters and entertains extremism, which makes him every bit as much of an opportunist as Gruevksy himself.

  141. A very good morning to all…

    @Airetikos,
    Extreme positions and personal attacks CAN undermine valid criticisms.
    Here are some examples:

    You said

    «And so far Mr. Hoare’s “historical” work is laughable, just like those nutty Zeitgeist theories you rightly took a sledgehammer to.»

    Actually…
    1) I was WRONG to demonize Zeitgeist theories. Some of them, e.g. as regards the economy, have valid points. NOT everything is paranoia or myth. I try to improve my own style, and did not hesitate to ADMIT this, later on – in that post. Those corrections made the criticisms more valid, as well as -possibly- more persuasive for fanatical Zeitgeist fans.

    And something more on-topic:
    2) Dr. Hoare is NOT «laughable as a historian», at all, if we are talking about the history of Bosnia-Herzegovina. On the contrary, in that area of history, he is a world expert! I will show you some links, later, about this fact….

    The point that you miss (IMHO) is that Dr. Hoare makes serious mistakes in an area of History which is FAR from being his own specialty: Ancient Greek history, as well as the deeply disturbed State propaganda (in FYROM but MOSTLY in Greece). I think he makes serious mistakes of interpretation, as regards Greek policies, e.g. grossly underestimating the Greek «Macedonian Struggle» (of Paul Melas, etc).

    Now, it so happens that I am one of these rare Greeks who DOES NOT feel «proud», AT ALL, about the «Macedonian struggle». It was a VERY dirty war. Despicable crimes were committed by all sides, including (a few years later) the burning of Kilkis, originally a Bulgarian city at the time, called Koukoush, by the Greek Army, as a very official reprisal (ordered by the KING) for the burning and extermination of Greek villages by the Bulgarians…

    But the point I want to make is TOTALLY different:
    -That Dr. Hoare appears to TOTALLY DISREGARD the amount of Greek «pride» about the «Macedonian struggle», a CENTRAL aspect of Greek nationalism for many decades. The «Greek Liberation of Macedonia», was SO important for Greek identity, that it’s hardly necessary to look for the use of «Macedonia» elsewhere, e.g. in the Greek State administration (ministries etc), in order to prove that the word (and region called) «Macedonia» was considered for MANY years a self-evident fact and a top-priority national issue, etc.

    So, my dear Heretic, by trying to totally discredit Dr. Hoare’s history work as «laughable», the people who know his REAL work laugh with… you and me, missing the previous SERIOUS point..

    Links in my next comment, or in this one, after editing.
    Let’s REFRESH OFTEN (posts, comments and… MINDS)!!!😆

  142. P.S.
    Note that Dr. Hoare makes NO SECRET of the fact that in the dispute between Greece and FYROM, he CONSCIOUSLY and DELIBERATELY takes sides.
    He does NOT pretend to be impartial, he OPENLY supports FYROM (and SAYS so).

    I prefer an HONEST propagandist, who also BELIEVES he has a worthy cause, than a hypocrite pretending to be «impartial».

    Moreover, I believe that his involvement in THIS dispute, taking sides and supporting FYROM nationalist propaganda, taking it to be true at FACE VALUE, is an amusing… hobby, for him (COMPLETELY OUTSIDE his REAL academic work), but which also became more… professional when e.g. he published his views in FYROM’s popular newspaper «New Macedonia»!😆

    So,
    -CAN we persuade HIM to see things from ANOTHER point of view?
    -CAN we persuade his colleagues about his mistakes in this… hobby, WITHOUT demonising his OTHER work, which is academically SOUND and RECOGNISED?
    -CAN we show to HIM, too, that we ARE capable of civilised debate?
    -CAN we be more effective, in the pursuit of PEACE and RECONCILIATION (a goal about which he CANNOT possibly OBJECT)?
    -CAN we create CONDITIONS for healthy dialogue, so OPEN that it will be a MISTAKE for him not to join?
    -CAN we find moderate people in FYROM who see some COMMON GROUND with us, so as to SOLVE our dispute?
    -CAN we PROVE to the rest of the world, in as few words as possible, that the Composite Name for F.Y.R.Macedonia is a REASONABLE and MODERATE proposal?
    etc.
    (THESE are the issues I consider most important -perhaps I forgot a few)

    _______
    P.S.2
    SUPPOSE now, my dear Heretic, that Dr. Hoare is actually an… evil man, bent on slandering Greece, e.g. hateful because of Greek students in Cambridge stealing English girlfriends (I was… actually VERY active in the sport of Disco dancing in Oxford, at the time, where I WORKED after my studies in Essex… but HAVE heard of the awful Greeks in Cambridge -hehe)….😆

    SO WHAT?

    If we can SHOW him certain things, PROVE them, even to absolutely uninformed impartial observers, then…
    …MAYBE he will reconsider some of his excesses,
    …or else (if he doesn’t) MAYBE OTHERS will reconsider, NOT taking certain views to be correct «by default», any more, NOT believing everything Dr. Hoare advocates JUST BECAUSE he is a worthy academic in OTHER fields of History.

    I also think that… in the unlikely event that he REALIZES some of these mistakes, even if he doesn’t come out OPENLY to say they were mistakes, or… in the -most likely- event that OTHERS realize, OTHER good things can happen:

    E.g. the CREATION of a TRUSTWORTHY, reasonable and valid position for SOLVING the dispute between Greece and FYROM, and -especially- REDUCING the amount of dangerous fanaticism and nationalist hatred on ALL sides.

    «An enemy is only someone whose story we haven’t heard»

    -famous saying (but I forgot WHO said it…)

  143. P.S.3
    Before giving links, I want to say certain things OPENLY, so that Dr. Hoare ALSO realizes that I AM aware of them.

    BOTH his father AND mother are very respectable people, both of them quite well known for their important roles and positions in the «Bosnia Institute«, which is dedicated to the study of the History of Bosnia, studies about the Bosnia War and also the issue of the Bosnian Genocide (the term «genocide» being disputed by others, NOT all of them evil men I think…)

    Now, after extensive study of facts (about the Bosnian war) from BOTH sides, I tend to AGREE with the ICTY (DESPITE certain of its faults) and consider it a GENOCIDE, what happened in Bosnia, more precisely an… ATTEMPT to commit genocide (by the Serbs), since most Bosnian people were happily NOT exterminated. (actually thousands WERE exterminated; so the term «attempt» is superfluous…)

    The role of Western powers is something I STILL investigate (an… extreme NEW example being THIS story). But… even if they had a material interest to get involved, this does NOT absolve Serb war crimes, which (as I said before) heavily outnumbered Bosnian war crimes and were also largely PLANNED AHEAD by the Serbian leaders.

    HAVING SAID all this, now… I ALSO see the EXPLICIT involvement of the USA, in the Bosnian institute itself (e.g. at least two people are top-level American professors advising the US administration itself about Bosnian affairs, one of them teaching in a military academic institution).

    So, I am afraid that we’re NOT just trying to… persuade Dr. Hoare, or his colleagues, or the world…

    For all practical intents and purposes, we are effectively…
    trying to persuade American top-level policy makers, in this post.

    BEWARE….🙂

    ____________
    P.S.4
    SOME REFERENCES:

    http://fass.kingston.ac.uk/faculty/staff/cv.php?staffnum=462
    http://www.democratiya.com/authors/bio.asp?id=26
    http://democratiya.com/authors/bio.asp?id=20
    http://www.bosnia.org.uk/
    http://www.bosnia.org.uk/about/default.cfm
    http://www.packard.org/categoryDetails.aspx?RootCatID=3&CategoryID=3
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Woodley_Packard
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Lucile_Packard_Foundation
    http://www.bosnia.org.uk/about/staff.cfm
    http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/report_format.cfm?articleid=3166&reportid=173
    http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/report_format.cfm?articleid=3175&reportid=173

    ADDITIONAL NOTES:
    1) The Bosnia Instute’s Director is Mr. Quintin Hoare (Dr. Hoare’s father)

    Familiar with the former Yugoslavia for the past forty years, he is an independent commentator on the region. He has worked as an editor and translator – from French, German, Italian and the language(s) of Bosnia-Herzegovina – and was a joint founding editor of Bosnia Report.

    2) Dr. Hoare’s mother is Ms. Branka Magas:

    Historian, journalist and regular commentator on Balkan affairs, she has published in, among others, The New Statesman, The Tablet and London Review of Books. A joint founding editor of Bosnia Report, she has edited for The Bosnian Institute Question of Survival: a common educational system for Bosnia-Herzegovina (1998) and co-edited The War in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina 1991-1995 (2001). Author of The Destruction of Yugoslavia: tracking the break-up 1980-92 (1993), she is currently working on a history of Croatia.

  144. Also:

    http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/
    http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/committee.asp?pageid=39

    and…
    http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/member.asp?pageid=40&mid=9

    Dr. Marko Attila Hoare
    Section Director, European Neighbourhood

    Marko Attila Hoare is a Senior Research Fellow at the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences, Kingston University (London). He received his BA from the University of Cambridge in 1994 and his PhD from Yale University in 2000.

    Hoare has been studying the history of South East Europe, in particular the former Yugoslavia, since 1993, and is intimately acquainted with the lands and peoples of Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the summer of 1995, he acted as translator for the aid convoy to the Bosnian town of Tuzla organised by Workers Aid, a movement of solidarity in support of the Bosnian people. In 1998-2001 he lived in Belgrade, and was resident there during the Kosovo War of 1999. As a journalist, he covered the fall of Milosevic in 2000. He worked as a Research Officer for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia’s Office of the Prosecutor in 2001, and participated in the drafting of the indictment of Slobodan Milosevic.

    He is the author of How Bosnia Armed (Saqi, London, 2004), Genocide and Resistance in Hitler’s Bosnia: The Partisans and the Chetniks, 1941-1943 (Oxford University Press, London, 2006) and The History of Bosnia-Hercegovina: From the Middle Ages to the Present Day (Saqi, London, 2007).

  145. P.S.5 We must also consider the possibility thar Dr. Hoare,

    1) having SEEN and WITNESSED some REAL human suffering, on the spot (as a translator DURING the Bosnian war AND a journalist etc.)
    2) having discovered TRUTHS in his own area of specialisation (Bosnian History since 1993, etc)
    3) having A FAMILY dedicated to a Noble Cause…
    4) having the ABILITY to persuade and a TENDENCY to be passionate because of (1) (2) (3)
    5) having a partly Balkanian… temperament, combined with English knowledge of rational debate (as in Cambridge – the «debating society» there being FAMOUS)

    is a WORTHY intellectual, whom we CANNOT consider a LIAR; but also a potentially ONE-SIDED supporter of what he THINKS is a valid and worthwhile cause:
    -The defense of FYROM….

    _______
    P.S.6 some of his mistakes, I think, are… VERY Balkanian (or even… Greek!)😆
    (Come on now, Heretic, don’t some of them remind you of… Mr. Papathemelis?)

    _________
    P.S.7 Personally, I find GREAT SIMILARITIES between e.g. Dr. Hoare’s defense of «Archeomacedonism» with e.g. Mr. Karambelias’s defense of FAITH in the Greek Orthodox Faith.
    -BOTH of them believe these… ideological FICTIONS to be
    «NECESSARY FOR NATIONAL IDENTITY»... hahaha🙂

    (except that one fiction is ALSO irrational AND anti-historical; whereas…
    the other one is… more decent, for a number of CENTURIES)
    Why?

    PROOF sketch: (unpublished -hehe)
    *****************
    1) Dr. Hoare KNOWS the _Alexander-myth_ to be fiction, but USES IT and SUPPORTS IT to boost… «Macedonian» IDENTITY and MORALE
    2)
    Mr. Karambelias (SURELY) knows the _Christian doctrine_ to be fiction, but USES it and SUPPORTS it to boost Greek IDENTITY and MORALE

    MY VIEW: – TO HELL with IDENTITY POLITICS (ALL of them)😆

    OF course, there is also…

    1) Dr. Hoare: (the defense of)… «western interests» (my ass)….

    AND (on the other side):

    2) Karambelias: the «defense from the destruction of National Identity by Globalisation» (my ass)…
    (a FALLACY, about which poor-old Chomsky has written lots, IN VAIN…)

  146. I don’t even have to try to ridicule anyone. Those persons I’ve ridiculed did it all by themselves, just like that senator in the movie «Religulous»: you know, the idiot who, when confronted by the interviewer about his unconditional belief in talking snakes (the whole Genesis thing), responded with «you don’t have to take an IQ test to become a senator!». I honestly don’t give a damn who anyone’s parents are. I only draw conclusions from one’s work. And remember, it takes volumes of good work to build a good reputation, but only ONE paragraph to destroy it. It’s not MY fault that Mr. Hoare CHOSE to support extremism and irredentism. It’s not MY fault that he CHOSE to base his claims on dubious and unreliable sources. And it’s not MY fault that these slips he keeps repeating (and we know that to err twice is unwise, and repeating the same mistake multiple times is stupid) on his own accord and by his own choice discredit him. He chose to discredit himself. And since he is agenda-driven in this dispute and his goal is hostile to OUR interests, I don’t have to save his credibility that HE chose to throw down the toilet and flush twice. And he’d better watch out in case we see «macedonian» terrorism here in the vein of the ETA, because then I’ll readily give his name to the authorities, including the Interpol, with the suspicion of instigating terrorism. And that will be A LOT worse than my pointing out the flaws of his thinking and his work. That said, does he offer FYROM any decent service? The answer is a big, fat NO. I don’t care why he does what he does. I’m not his therapist and I’ve got my own life to attend to. But if the Rainbow party or any «macedonian» faction evolves into a terrorist squad, the ideological supporters of such extremism will have hell to pay and they won’t manage to be as elusive as 17N. Does Mr. Hoare want to cause his beloved FYROM to be labeled a terrorist, rogue state? If not, he’d better start taking lessons in being moderate. Otherwise, he’ll have me breathing down his spine, IF (or WHEN) the day comes when some psychos start planting bombs in the name of Hoare and Gruevky’s «Aegean Macedonia». And he doesn’t know if I have connections in high places and what these connections are…

  147. @Heretic,
    I just corrected the typos in your comment.
    Well, well, well…

    And since he is agenda-driven in this dispute and his goal is hostile to OUR interests, I don’t have to save his credibility that HE chose to throw down the toilet and flush twice.

    Well, THIS is the problem with nationalist arguments. They interest no-one, except the people who belong to the one very specific nation presenting these arguments.

    Do you know WHO are the people reading us NOW?

    -Well, roughly… 90% of the people reading this post and this conversation, got here through the link in Dr. Hoare’s post:
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/macedonia-and-greece-what-is-the-basis-for-a-reconciliation/

    In REAL international debate «OUR interests» are totally beside the point.
    «OUR interests» are ONLY important to… us!🙂

    It is of course… highly possible that some rather inane... Greek nationalists have already started wondering whether I am being… «too soft», on Dr. Hoare’s… excesses (in case I… disappoint the new international blog-audience).
    Well, these guys are wrong:
    -I am only trying to… enchant and PERSUADE this audience.

    My aim is to get AT LEAST one moderate Macedonian-Slav to… agree with us; or to -at least- enable some naive enthusiastic supporters of this new country’s nationalism, see some of its negative side-effects; or to see something POSITIVE and VIABLE, as a position from the Greek side.

    As regards the possibility of «terrorism» (something I brought up first – and our friend «yep» strongly disagreed) it is roughly 100 times LESS LIKELY to occur, than the exactly opposite «patriotic» terrorism, from Greek neo-nazis and other extremists, against supporters of Slav-Macedonian nationalism in Greece (and the minority party «Rainbow«).
    It is ALSO these people, that I am trying to PROTECT; if some of them are already reading this post, if I can make even ONE of them understand certain things, it will be a great success. (Because the fascists I… cannot persuade; as you know fascists have either a low IQ ,or a very low… willingness to see anything different than their own views).

    Actually, the Rainbow party’s declaration is IMPECCABLE, in its denunciation of ALL terrorism, as well as (more importantly) the denunciation of ALL irredentism and ALL changes of official state-borders, from now on, in the Balkans. I read their manifesto and a few other texts, a few days ago (Dr. Hoare ALSO provides links) and I was simply amazed…

    In fact I thought it might be a… worthwhile joke, to actually change a few words in those texts, replace «Rainbow» by something else and… re-publish those texts as if they were made by a very liberal and open-minded unknown political party, very concerned about our country’s safety and freedom from international threats!🙂
    -This is NOT to say that I agree with EVERYTHING they say; as the German saying goes «the devil is hiding in the details».

    Most importantly, this small political party (Rainbow) makes NO effort to reconcile its reasonable and valid demands for equality etc. etc. with… the emotional and factual objections by about 2.5 million Greek Macedonians who are ALREADY called «Macedonian»! It is a long, tedious and difficult issue to handle. And because it is an issue INSIDE Greece, the Greek Macedonians have every right to object and to feel offended.

    Which brings me to one very important reason, I support the idea of a composite name, both for our neighbouring country and for our own minority identifying with it. I can assure our readers that the «name-dispute» over our own internal minority will be even more difficult to solve than the issue of the national «name-dispute». And this is because some very official circles in the United Nations have expressed serious objections to the Rainbow party’s demands for recognition as «Macedonians»: They MUST find ANOTHER name; «Macedonians» is ALREADY reserved by Greek Macedonians.

    The complexities, the subtleties and the multiple repercussions, of these «name-disputes», are simply NOT handled fairly by Dr. Hoare, who sees nothing of value except the «Macedonian» side…

    O.T.O.H. I would NEVER support the idea (implied by you, Heretic) that… we should start a kind of internal… pogrom against possible suspects of «terrorism», after the first occurrence of a terrorist incident by «Macedonians». Nor do I agree that (in this case) Dr. Hoare has ANYTHING to do with it.
    Your clear THREAT to try to IMPLICATE him, with no evidence, even as a «possible suspect», is something I have to disagree with; even though I WOULD agree more generally that HIS IDEAS CAN ALSO INSTIGATE violence, possibly even terrorism, among fanatical «Macedonians».

    Ah well, LOTS of ideas CAN instigate terrorism. We can’t… incriminate IDEAS!🙂 Ideas, we should only fight through debate.

  148. P.S.2 (for non-Greek readers now)
    The original UNITED NATIONS document mentioned is:
    http://www.unog.ch/unog/website/news_media.nsf/(httpNewsByYear_en)/E70BAE8DBF374DD4C125760F002F9B2B?OpenDocument
    (COMMITTEE ON ELIMINATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION CONSIDERS REPORT OF GREECE,
    11 August 2009)
    (special thanks to Akritas, who found this link; a Greek Macedonian blogger with whom I have also… disagreed fiercely on many OTHER issues at times, in… civilised debate!🙂 )

    Here are extracts, from this longish UN report:
    NOTE: Readers who’d like a… VERY GOOD LAUGH first, PLEASE SCROLL DOWN
    (the others can «Put the COTT down» – Cott=chicken; Greek joke)

    …In this connection, claims that Greece did not recognize the existence of a national linguistic minority by the name of “Macedonian” were totally unsubstantiated and threatened to create potential tensions over existing identities in the region, as well as serious confusion over that name, as it was also used by hundreds of thousands Greek Macedonians living in the northern part of the country, said Ms. Telalian [from the Greek delegation]. Also, the non-recognition of numerically small groups as a national minority did not imply discriminatory treatment.

    […]

    Turning to the question of those who insisted on a Slavic Macedonian minority, Mr. Lindgren Alves [UN] said that the most important thing was to assure their human rights in general, including their right to use their dialect or mother language, as any other group. The non-recognition of a group as a minority did not deprive such a group from the enjoyment of its rights. He had been interested to learn that even a political party to foster the claims of Slavic Macedonians had been accepted and had been freely participating in parliamentary elections.

    On the so-called Slavic “Macedonians” the (Greek) delegation said that this was not a case of self identification as this group did not base its identification on objective criteria. The “Slavic” qualifier was not used in this case. The only qualifier used by this community was the “Macedonian” one. The problem was that the “Macedonian” term was already used by thousands of people in Greece. Up until recently, this group of “Slavic Macedonians” had been completely unknown, not only to Greece but to the whole Balkan region.

    The (Greek) delegation said that the “Slavic Macedonians” were however not prevented from speaking their oral idiom or from stating that they were part of a certain group. The fact that the Greek State had not officially recognised them did not mean that this community was not fully enjoying its rights and that its members were not fully respected by the Greek State.

    The (Greek) delegation underscored that there was a dignity in the name of the Greek Macedonians and said that Greece had not gotten any answer yet on why the State should not respect the cultural and historical heritage of the Greek Macedonians. It had nothing to do with the denial of the existence of a minority group but the denial of a name that was already used since a long time.

    In this connection, claims that Greece did not recognize the existence of a national linguistic minority by the name of “Macedonian” were totally unsubstantiated and threatened to create potential tensions over existing identities in the region, as well as serious confusion over that name, as it was also used by hundreds of thousands Greek Macedonians living in the northern part of the country, said Ms. Telalian. Also, the non-recognition of numerically small groups as a national minority did not imply discriminatory treatment.

    Jose Lindgren Alves, the Committee Expert serving as country Rapporteur for the report of Greece, said that, on the question of the so-called “Slavic Macedonians”, he did not know that they were denying their Slavic origin, even though he had been an ambassador to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. He wondered if it would change something if this community would recognise its “Slavic Macedonian” culture.

    Replies by the Delegation

    Responding to this question, the delegation said that they were not in a position to respond in a hypothetical sense. Very recently, Greece had said that the “Slavic Macedonians” should have used a qualifier to clarify their origin. Why were they constantly using the name Macedonian, which already identified 2.5 million Macedonians in the cultural sense? Even the former leaders of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia had admitted that they were of Slavic origin. This question had only come up in the last years. Everyone in the Balkans knew very well what minorities there were in the Balkans, as the question of minorities in the Balkans had created so many tensions in the region. This was the very first time that they had heard of a “Macedonian” group in this region. It was a question of dignity of the name “Macedonian”.

    This difference had created a tension with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and even the United Nations Security Council had said that there was a difference in the name. This situation had to be solved. In Security Council resolution 1845, the Council had asked the two parties to settle the question under the auspices of the United Nations. This clearly showed that what was in a name had several historical and political implications. It was not a question of a specific denial but the risk of creating tension among identities in the Balkans.

    […]

    In preliminary concluding observations, Jose Lindgren Alves, the Committee Expert who served as country Rapporteur for the report of Greece, thanked the Greek delegation for their serious replies. His essential conclusion about the whole discussion was positive. He thought that the replies given today had been very thorough and frank and almost 100 per cent satisfactory. He could however not ensure that his colleagues had no doubts and that the Committee would not issue its recommendation in a different way.
    [….]
    Mr. Lindgren Alves said that the reforms carried out by the Government, specifically for Roma, Muslims and migrants were very positive. Most of the criticism of his colleagues had to do with the recognition of minorities, which, according to European law was linked with a lot of quotas and allotting slots for them in the Government. If this was not the reason why his colleagues had raised these questions, he did not know why they were spending so much time in discussing names…

    (Ah well; maybe he never heard the name «malakas»; the Malakas Ethnic minority THRIVES in Greece…)

    It’s good; Every Greek should feel very pleased, now! Yes?
    …Or not?
    Well, here are some… bad news:

    …Mr. Lindgren Alves had also been glad to learn that Greece did not have an organized Neo-Nazi movement but he wondered whether Greece had banned any organization or group, including Neo-Nazi groups, as they seemed to be very active and growing in Europe. Anti-Semitism and other manifestations that reminded them of the Nazi regime seemed to be rather frequent in unofficial Greek publications and declarations of public personalities. He hoped that the Government would keep the same firm stance to counter these trends.

    I.e. the Greek delegation LIED; fooling the UN official into believing that «there are no NeoNazi groups in Greece»!

    Tsk, tsk, tsk…

  149. Well, let me remind you that a prejudiced mind is utterly non-functional and, therefore, incapable if understanding that 1+1=2. Now, I don’t imply that I’ll incriminate Hoare if, fueled by his hateful rhetorics, some nutcases start bombing stuff in the name of his favored FYROMian irredentism. I’m giving him one last wake-up call. And yes, hateful rhetoric, if it inspires someone to commit crimes, brings forth the issue of the speaker’s responsibility. Remember Costas Plevris? The neo-nazi douche bag who wrote that book in which he called for the wanton execution of Jews? If someone, inspired by these writings, starts killing Jews, we’ll rightly ask for the persecution of Plevris for instigating hate crimes. Why shouldn’t we treat EVERY extremist this way? When one encourages hatred, he is responsible and accountable for what is done in the name of this hatred; it’s as simple as that.

    And you know full well that I don’t even want to think of the idea of yet another conflict in the Balkans. Oh, and Tito an… emancipator? Yeah, right. The guy herded together – against their will – communities that didn’t want to coexist peacefully in the same neighborhood and couldn’t bear the thought of having to live together, as the dissolution of Yugoslavia proved. And, quite frankly, I don’t care who readws my writing, who agrees or who disagrees. And I won’t bother to gently take anyone by the hand to gradually help them ditch their delusions. No one did it for me and it wouldn’t work on anyone anyway; we all learn the hard way, through errors, harsh criticism and even ridicule. Think of this whole thing as a good cop-bad cop game: you’re the gentle, patient guy who’ll tolerate even a moron, I’m the one who doesn’t have time for anyone’s BS and isn’t impressed by papers and scrolls.

  150. Well yes,

    Dear Heretic,
    I agree that hateful rhetoric ALWAYS has bad side-effects;
    INCLUDING -possibly- violence, or even terrorism.

    THIS is what this post tries to criticize, above all…

    Besides…
    the «malakas ethnic minority», IS… international !😆

  151. Heretic
    Well, you said TWO things basically

    …And he’d better watch out in case we see “macedonian” terrorism here in the vein of the ETA, because then I’ll readily give his name to the authorities, including the Interpol, with the suspicion of instigating terrorism. And that will be A LOT worse than my pointing out the flaws of his thinking and his work.

    This is really something readers can interpret as they like.

    I quite frankly dont give a damn if you «readily give his name to the authorities».
    WHICH authorities, anyway?
    He IS a kind of authority…
    (and would probably give YOUR name to the authorities, then, as a «dangerous chauvinistic nationalist»).

    THIS LEADS NOWHERE.

    That said, does he offer FYROM any decent service? The answer is a big, fat NO.

    Well,
    He DOES offer FYROM’s NATIONALISM, a very good service.

    But THIS nationalism is NOT necessarily good for it.
    I personally believe it’s very bad for it.

    In other words, I AGREE with you…

  152. @Dennis, hi !

    All nationalists are malakes but not all malakes are nationalists I have to say

    THIS is important; NOT just …. funny!🙂
    BIGOTRY is a broader category than nationalism, too.

    All nationalists are bigots but not all bigots are nationalists.

    Q.E.D. (in Greek, «Οπερ Εδει Δείξαι»)😆

  153. P.S.
    @Heretic
    I corrected your comment according to your request.

    About some of the things you said, now…

    And, quite frankly, I don’t care who reads my writing, who agrees or who disagrees.

    Then… I wouldn’t write anything, if I were you.😉 (this is RHETORICAL, of course…)🙂

    WHY write anything at all, if you don’t care about who reads it, who agrees and who disagrees?

    Unfortunately, in the 21st century, our writing HAS to consider, sometimes very carefully, WHAT type of audience it is addressing. It’s a very basic thing, WE OFTEN FORGET.

    WHO is your target-audience? If you KNOW your target-audience, you can OPTIMIZE your FORM of expression.

    I write differently for Greek readers; probably this is obvious.

    I write differently for the SAME reader, addressing DIFFERENT ASPECTS of the SAME reader’s personality, or ethics, or sense of humour, or ideas, etc.

    What we write HAS to take into consideration for WHOM we write it, INCLUDING (possibly, or MOSTLY) UNKNOWN readers (the majority). For those readers, again, there are general principles and values, or criteria of effectiveness, that distinguish bad (ineffective writing) from good (effective writing), etc.

    I try to improve all the time. I NEVER assume myself to be perfect.
    Improve for myself, first of all, as regards my own standards.
    Writing (also) FOR OURSELVES is a PART of all this…

    And I won’t bother to gently take anyone by the hand to gradually help them ditch their delusions.

    Well, rest assured (if you dont believe it) that…
    NO, I do NOT gently take…. Dr. Hoare by the hand…

  154. 1. There’s no such thing as a «malakas ethnic minority». They’re MAJORITY.

    2. I write to express myself. If someone else agrees, fine. If not, big deal.

    3. Well, Hoare doesn’t need to be taken by the hand; he’s BOU (big, old and ugly) enough to assume responsibility for his actions.

  155. @Heretic

    1. There’s no such thing as a “malakas ethnic minority”. They’re MAJORITY.
    2. I write to express myself. If someone else agrees, fine. If not, big deal.
    3. Well, Hoare doesn’t need to be taken by the hand; he’s BOU (big, old and ugly) enough to assume responsibility for his actions.

    1. I agree completely. They are a majority in BOTH countries, most probably. Otherwise the «name dispute» would not even exist, or it might have been solved in a matter of days.

    2. This is the one most legitimate reason for writing, yes. There are others (e.g. for success in debate).

    E.g. links just came to this post from something I wrote ages ago, in English:
    http://hschenker.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/no-end-to-tribalism-the-dispute-around-the-copyright-on-macedonia/

    My comment there was «target-driven», to be EFFECTIVE:
    http://hschenker.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/no-end-to-tribalism-the-dispute-around-the-copyright-on-macedonia/#comment-32

    3. Hoare should NOT be taken by the hand. As a matter of fact, he did not take me… by the hand, either; and neither did I (apart from my apologies for one word that offended him).

    Some very serious criticisms have ALREADY been expressed in previous comments. Information about his personality or work or my opinion (or your opinion) about all this are just like… salad-dressing.

    Important points are elsewhere, and I have only began to scratch the surface, of the material in question…

  156. News from the Srebrenica Genocide blog, as well as…
    http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2005/12/chomskys-genocidal-denial.html
    about Alexander «the Great»….

    1) ALL comments were approved.

    2) Dr. Hoare had (in the recent past) ASSUMED that I am a nationalist because of believing that Alexander was Greek.

    Well, sorry, I disagree; FAMOUS HISTORIANS throughout the world, most of them non-Greek, ALSO believe (with evidence) that Alexander _was_ Greek, just like I do.
    E.g. this guy:
    http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/ahma/faculty_miller.html
    and all these guys (most of them non-Greek) Classical Historians, Classical Archaeologists and Classicists:
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html
    These guys are SCIENTISTS, not… Greek nationalists!

    The wikipedia lemma on Alexander is here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great

    3) I only regret one thing I wrote, which is… recommending to readers… Dr. Hoare himself, as a «reference» (after clearing up all misunderstandings), as regards my «nationalism».
    Well, ON the whole, given his post, I dont think he is the best… correct reference on that particular topic (hehe).

    I thank Heretic very much, for his support (in that blog).

    However, I must ALSO thank j95 because (in the end) he ALSO defended my good name, in the Srebrenica blog, which was in fact… unexpected (given what he had said here).

    There is every reason to believe that we CAN evolve positively, ALL of us….

  157. Here’s another (VERY Rayne Summers – the lead character of the «Least I Could Do» webcomic) reason for writing without caring who agrees witg you: Because you can.

    Furthermore, you asked why greek diplomacy is so inefficient (regardless of Hoare’s myths of Greek nationalist bully diplomats manhandling the EU and NATO – the guy is either very imaginative or high on somethong seriously good). I’ll give you the best answer I can:

    1. It lacks specific goals. Turkish diplomacy is very goal-driven.
    2. It doesn’t take advantage of the Greek lobby in the US.
    3. It lacks consistency.
    4. Its direction shifts according to whatever short-term whim the government has (see below).
    5. It is a weaponry-shopping diplomacy. We think that purchasing weapons will make country A or B (which supplies us with said weapons) favor our positions.
    6. It is largely based on the Martha Vourtsi Syndrome and the stupid notion of «national rights» when only national interests exist.
    7. Diplomats are usually lapdogs of the governing party and, for thr most part, their IQ is so low that they have trouble answering a question easily handled by a retarded chimpanzee.

  158. I mentioned earlier that Hoare, if he truly cares about FYROM, he should immediately drop all his support to the nationalist regime and be RATIONAL, reasonable and moderate; he should urge for a mutually acceptable solution instead of encouraging the perpetuation of this ridiculous mythology, which only leads the country he CLAIMS to support straighr into a dead-end and, quite possibly, in the direction of the path followed by other countries like Iran, Afghanistan and North Korea. Of course, it takes a knowledgeable and free from myths person to do that. Hoare is delusional (due to his inexplicable and almost racist hatred against Greece), for he does not see that, by bolstering an extreme nationalism (he lends credibility to Gruevsky’s insanity), he is playing with fire in Europe’s gunpowder keg.

  159. I say good-night to you, dear Heretic with a request that you try to follow my… imperfect example, of TRYING to be less extreme.

    Because -after all- this blog is indirectly linked now by… «Macedonian» blogs, too… (through Dr. Hoare’s blog):
    http://macedoniatoday.co.cc/?p=432
    TWO CLICKS AWAY…

    Remember: The composite name solution is OFFICIAL Greek policy now, since 2008. It’s probably the ONLY official Greek policy with which I agree, because I believe it will reduce the amount of tension, hatred and nationalist conflict in BOTH countries…

  160. And, out of courtesy to non-Greek readers, I’ll explain what the Martha Vourtsi Syndrome is. It’s a Greek pop culture reference, a term I first coined last year, inspired by the tear-drenched ’60s and ’70s melodramatic movies starring Greek actress Martha Vourtsi. In these films, the leading female character (played by Mrs Vourtsi) was always persecuted, hated and humiliated by everyone just because she existed and was always crying Amazon-sized rivers about it.

    Thus, this syndrome is the (usually) paranoid idea that someone is persecuted, hated etc by EVERYONE for no reason other than his/her existence, ethnicity, economic status, color, sex, political leanings, religion and/or sexual orientation. It is most often encountered among people of the three nations that fancy themselves as God’s chosen peopld (Jews, Greeks and, lately, courtesy of FYROMian racist propaganda, FYROMians) and other groups of people that like to present themselves as victims of circumstance and everyone else’s malevolence.

  161. If we wanted to be geographically correct, I am unsure whether a composite name containing the term «Macedonia» is meaningful. If I’m not mistaken, only a small part of the historical land of ancient Macedonia belongs to FYROM now and the rest of their territory seems to be Paeonia. Maybe not as glorious-sounding, but a glorious name from the past isn’t always the best idea: modern Greeks are always compared to their (not always rightly) exalted ancestors (who are often seen through rose-tinted lenses) and always compare unfavorably, thus ending up being relegated to the «talentless son of a talented father» crate. So, why would ANYONE want to be compared unfavorably to illustrious ancestors? I know I wouldn’t. I’d prefer to be judged for MY achievements, not for how I compare to what others think my ancestors were and always having people giving me the piss for not being worthy of being considered a descendant of my (supposedly) glorious ancestors.

  162. Αιρετικός:»I honestly don’t give a damn who anyone’s parents are. I only draw conclusions from one’s work. »

    Indeed, «Hoare» is just a name here (leaving his possibly influential position as member of an «independent think-tank» aside).

    omadeon:»I.e. the Greek delegation LIED; fooling the UN official into believing that “there are no NeoNazi groups in Greece»

    That’s true (thinking of Golden Dawn?) but «neo-nazism», unlike nationalism, in Greece seems to be limited. Anti-semitism, which, however, might tie in with neo-nazism in some contexts, is a different matter unfortunately. Then again defining «neo-nazism» and «nationalism» in this context is an exercise I’ll leave to others.

    And finally, why do people think that «asserting the Greekness» (again, Greekness in *that* context) of the ancient Macedonians is somehow «nationalist»? The modern Slavic speakers should call themselves what they want and Greece should step down (sorry if this appears ‘forceful’, I gave arguments regarding the whole matter in various posts above) but this shouldn’t have to do anything with ancient history *either way*.

    j95 surely sounds patronising in his posts over there. «I’m the light among the darkness» blah blah.

  163. And something for shits and giggles. Hoare repeats his IGENEA genetic argument on the Srebrenica blog: «And modern ethnic Macedonians have a stronger genetic linkage than ethnic Greeks with the Ancient Macedonians.»

    Hooray for the racist in all of us.

  164. Good morning to all !🙂
    It appears that… wordpress was slightly fascist yesterday! (I WAS NOT -hehe) …re-assigning Yep’s comments to the moderation queue.
    I will answer comments and do the requested corrections in a minute or so (coffee-cup at hand).🙂
    ______

    @Yep
    Well said, and concisely so…

    Αιρετικός:”I honestly don’t give a damn who anyone’s parents are. I only draw conclusions from one’s work. ”

    Indeed, “Hoare” is just a name here (leaving his possibly influential position as member of an “independent think-tank” aside).

    Yep; Surely we can’t judge Dr. Hoare (or anyone) on the basis of who his parents are. This WOULD be ridiculous. However, the reasons I ALSO mentioned this (and other kinds of) information about him, are quite different:

    1) NEVER, EVER underestimate your opponent (I say this to Airetikos, ESPECIALLY…) in debate or in any other context…
    2) Never exclude OTHER implications, not necessarily positive, of such information. Example: MAYBE one was a kind of «spoilled child». Maybe one had an easier career in some fields thanks to one’s parents. E.g. my mother was a mathematician; making my journey into Logic and computing MUCH easier…🙂 i.e. UNDERSTAND your opponent (you never know how it can help).
    3) BE COURTEOUS, even to the worst of the worst, if you can: E.g. MAYBE the Other has a good side, or connections and strong points that MEAN something important…

    E.g. Personally, I find it hard to believe that Dr. Hoare is consciously lying…, in certain outrageous things he keeps repeating (like the «IGENEA» genetic report)… It’s more probable that he’s biased because of being TOO SURE of himself, having been raised to be «always right» and never wrong – GIVEN that he has parents SO HIGHLY respected, etc. etc.

    Also: Excellence in one area CAN cause arrogance in another. Noble Causes CAN feed bigotry. «The road to hell is paved with good intentions».
    High Connections CAN combine with Humanist (or other) political Agendas to cause «agenda-driven» support for biased ideas (or for… pleasing superiors). AMBITION also can be a problem; e.g. wanting to become the «Tony Blair» of the 21st century being ONE example…
    (I’m NOT implying ANY of this is true; just mentioning possibilities, quite generally, for ANYONE…)
    Let’s keep our minds OPEN:
    Famous people who played important parts in history have ALSO been bigots or fanatics (or even… assholes) in CERTAIN things, while being benefactors of mankind in OTHER things.

    For all these reasons, it is best to keep one’s eyes OPEN and one’s opinions free of bias. Assume the best, but prove the worst (if this follows logically from the evidence), and so on. In any case, I think it’s important to explore those links, e.g. as regards the Bosnian institute, for several reasons. (Need I say more?)

    Have you people not noticed Dr. Hoare’s tendency to JUMP TOO EASILY into the wrong conclusions? He also did this to me. I politely pointed this out, also in one of my letters to him.
    O.T.O.H. there are other things, e.g.
    -In one of his e-mails he remarked that I was wrong to attribute to him the statement that my arguments were «valid».
    Actually, he had only written to say that my arguments «can be reasonable», but that he disagreed with ALL of them (which I DID clarify).
    Now, there is a VERY subtle difference, between «valid» and «reasonable».
    This distinction is often LOST, in Greek, especially. A «valid» argument IS a «reasonable» one (normally) AND VICE VERSA (which is WRONG).
    I was WRONG. He did NOT say «valid», but he did say «(can be) reasonable».

    In Greek, however, «σωστό«(valid/correct) and «λογικό«(reasonable) are OFTEN considered synonymous; this is PERHAPS because in Greek we confuse LOGICAL falsity with FACTUAL falsity. -This should be added to my Logic site: http://omadeon.com/logic.

    Look, Heretikos, suppose you are e.g. a journalist (and bloggers ARE amateur journalists)… on a mission to INTERVIEW some person, who is important for some reason (NOT necessarily a good one). Now, would you spend your time calling him names, discrediting him and boasting about how unimportant he/she is? Or would you do YOUR JOB (even though an amateur journalist, i.e. a blogger) AS BEST AS YOU CAN, for the benefit of EVERY reader (even those who disagree)? Well, THIS is partly what I am trying to do, obviously…

  165. I repeat, also..
    It is HONOURABLE if one admits a mistake.
    If Dr. Hoare had the honesty to admit I that *I* am not a «vulgar chauvinist» (something that VERY FEW PEOPLE do on the internet, since most people want to be «always right»…)
    ….then I FORGIVE him for criticizing me fiercely, in his post!🙂 (which I ALSO did).

    The BASIS of communication is honesty.
    With a total liar, one CANNOT communicate.
    With a person who has the decency to say «I was wrong», we CAN.
    And there is even a hope (no matter how small -Heretic) that we CAN perhaps make that person say one day «I was AGAIN wrong, on So-and-so»…

    _________
    Famous people, benefactors of humanity (NOT Hoare, just speaking generally) have also been known to make BIG mistakes, CATASTROPHIC blunders that… sometimes -even- changed history.

    Bakunin was an antisemite, like many others. Nietzche was a sexist woman-hater, and a regular client of brothels (this not being too important, but… anyway)…
    STATEMENTS made by famous people have sometimes caused EVERYONE to have a very good laugh, making complete fools of themselves.

    Reputation is NOT built ONLY through hard work, but also by… big mistakes that one has… CORRECTED later on.

    Although it’s generally true, Heretic, that reputation is built bit-by-bit and can be lost in a second because of one wrong move, this applies only to… mediocrities, ordinary people, or… bloggers (like you and me). In people who have written important books, sometimes the mistakes feed a strange controversy that makes the public EVEN MORE appreciative of them (for their VALID work)…

    ________________
    What it ALL boils down to…
    is the ERRONEOUS LOGIC of DEMONISATION.

    J95 LOVES demonising «nationalists». I use inverted commas for… OBVIOUS reasons.🙂 Quite clearly he is a… Demonicist.

    Demonicism is a DISEASE we all have (to a certain extent).
    Recipe: FIND some baddies, to become a better gooddie, by whipping them HARD till they bleed… proving how GOOD you are!🙂

    (and some fanatical young people in Greece are like little chicken who haven’t yet come out of «Gooddies»; – a famous Fast-food chain of Greek shops…)😆

    Dr. Hoare ALSO demonises Chomsky. I agree with almost all his criticisms against Chomsky (so far) but I still do not accept the demonisation «Genocide Denier» (the topic of the discussion in the other post).

    There is MUCH more to say, about Demonisation…
    SO much, that I might write a post (or even a book) as said before:
    «De-constructing Demonisation without….. feeding the demons«.🙂

  166. J95 is a compulsive slanderer. As for Hoare, I don’t see why I should respect someone who doesn’t have the decency to admit his mistakes and, therefore, acts like those spammy religious nutjobs (e.g. Ivan Jokiq and other christian propagandists). And let me tell you that a scientist who continues to cite a fraudulent work as the basis for some of his arguments invalidates ALL his work.

  167. Airetikos,
    OK, feel free to NOT respect Hoare.
    Your reasons seem REASONABLE, but… not necessarily VALID ! (hehe)

    You can ALSO call j95 a «compulsive slanderer», GIVEN SOME evidence, which I am also well aware of.
    However (here is the «black swan» case, showing «NOT ALL swans are white»)
    -WHY did he not slander me ALSO in the other blog, given the fact that he «slandered» me (inverted commas NOW being necessary) in THIS blog?

    -SUCH subtle things, I find USEFUL to UNDERSTAND people more. About j95 I do think he IS ALWAYS biased, or ALMOST always, when trying to lash out against… Greece, or against nationalism and racism. But… NOT always…🙂

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

  168. P.S. (let’s have a… good laugh, now… hehe)

    The «j95 ANTI-VIRUS» ™ is the MOST powerful (human-form-) tool for detecting fascists, bigots and racists, in EVERY situation where they become UNREASONABLE. The basis of this anti-virus tool’s operation is the KNOWN fact that MOST fascists, racists, nationalists and bigots ARE unreasonable. Quite clearly, in the exceptional case that nationalists APPEAR reasonable (e.g. …Dr. Hoare) this software tool is TOTALLY unable to DETECT the infection…

    Moreover,

    Some MUTATIONS have occurred, in the meantime (ever since the HUMAN carrier of the antivirus tool j95 V.1 came into contact with various infected human targets…)
    These MUTATIONS are caused by an even MORE powerful virus (than fascism), called «Sophist Bigotry 1.0», which has INFECTED the antivirus tool, causing it to CREATE fascists and bigots (etc.) out of initially uninfected material, by provoking such material to BECOME… artificially UNREASONABLE.🙂

    (I am currently working on… antidotes, given the fact I have SUBTLE evidence, that the… human carrier of the antivirus tool-gone-mad is STILL alive AND sane …)🙂😆

  169. What reasons do I have to respect someone who spreads mythsm, presenting them as facts? Do we respect Liakopoulos? No. And you have pointed out already how dangerous it is to see nutjob theories masked with some reasonable stuff.

  170. EXERCISES (for more… laughter):
    1) WHAT are the differences between Liakopoulos and Dr. Hoare?
    2) WHAT are the SIMILARITIES?
    3) WHAT is the SUBTLE
    «Regiculus connection», alleged by THE heretic ™ ?
    4) WHY is tolerance of ALL excesses NECESSARY? (INCLUDING my… own excesses AND those of Heretikos) (j95 being… beyond competition due to the special… SOFTWARE he uses?)
    5) WHY should there ALWAYS be a… number 5 in every list?🙂

    SERIOUS IMPORTANT LOGIC NOTE :
    (in the spirit of G.S. Brown or «Axiom 2″ in MF logic):
    Demonising the… demonised, cancels out Demonisation.
    ****************************************************************

    HENCE (or otherwise)… (this is SERIOUS – don’t laugh…)
    -The REPEATED and EXTREME demonisation (e.g. by MEDIA) of someone who is… full of daemons (e.g. Milosevic) can ONLY result in the eventual CANCELLATION of the target’s REAL daemons, i.e. in the target’s SANCTIFICATION.

    HENCE (or otherwise) if western media didn’t demonize Milosevic SO MUCH, some people who sympathized with him (and became «genocide deniers») (because of mistrusting media-bias) might have NEVER done so, in the FIRST PLACE.
    (ONLY partially true, of course… but significantly so…)

    P.S. ONLY objective media are RELIABLE. Media bias becomes SUSPECT a priori.

  171. Finally, I’m behind a REAL keyboard with which I won’t have any excuses for typos (I absolutely HATE it when I see a typo-riddled text of mine) – iPhones suck more like Mrs. Lewinsky when it comes to facilitating fast typing.

    Omadeon, I mentioned that you have already pointed out the risk in the propagandizing of wacky theories (racist, nationalist, ethnic hate, religious etc) which are disguised as plausible and reasonable, merely because their propagandists have mixed them with reasonable elements and/or truths.

    I’ll take it one step further: What happens when someone who propagandizes nutjob theories does this in order to promote a potentially dangerous agenda, taking advantage of the circumstances that brought him in touch with prominent and powerful political and diplomatic circles?

    Oh, and the movie I referred to is titled «Religulous» (Religion + Ridiculous).

  172. @Αιρετικός,

    What happens when someone who propagandizes nutjob theories does this in order to promote a potentially dangerous agenda, taking advantage of the circumstances that brought him in touch with prominent and powerful political and diplomatic circles?

    GOOD QUESTION.
    Then we FIRST have to deal ADEQUATELY with the «nutjob theories», proving them to be INDEED «nutjob theories» (not just ideological mistakes or other… normal abberations).

    (The movie «Religulous» I already obtained thanks to you since yesterday, but… haven’t seen it yet).

  173. What happens when someone who propagandizes nutjob theories does this in order to promote a potentially dangerous agenda, taking advantage of the circumstances that brought him in touch with prominent and powerful political and diplomatic circles?

    A: The Greek state triples its territory to the suffering of millions.

  174. @j95
    TODAY’s nutjob theories ought to concern us today.

    (I can understand your analogy, and it’s a joke for people who don’t like Greece to laugh with, but I don’t think it’s exact; nor a good joke -except for Genuine Descendants of Makedon, who’d like to repeat the Conquests of Golem Alexandr…)🙂

  175. J95, do you believe you’d be happier living behind the Iron Curtain or under turkish rule? Because you clearly imply that you are suffering in this country and you’re suffering so much you’ve lost your mind completely, as your pathological lying and slander, as well as your delusions, keep proving time and time again. In other words, you need professional help that I can’t provide and, since I have a strict «no drama» policy, I’m not even willing to provide.

  176. @Heretic
    IMMENSE and TOTALLY UNCONTROLLABLE ABSOLUTE HATRED is something you CAN afford, NOT to show…. (especially since I… don’t think you HAVE it).

    @j95, @heretic
    I find it VERY hard to say something of value here, in this type of dispute.

    There are people who say that Greece should have never expanded to its present borders, but are they SURE that this would not ALSO cause suffering? Or… perhaps more, e.g. given the fact that Bulgarian atrocities were sometimes so horrible that they made Bulgarian peasants change sides, becoming… Greek? -I really don’t think so…

    j95 can sometimes be very biased, but this bias can only infuriate someone who doesn’t tolerate anti-Greek ideas. After all, any pile of insults and slander against someone makes me feel sympathy for him. I think anyone in the world who is sane would feel the same. And in THIS sense in Greece MOST people ARE insane…

    I have also suffered enormously by the narrow-mindedness and intolerance of Greek nationalism, especially while living in the Greek province for certain unfortunate short periods of time. I also have no illusions about the sufferings of others, because of Greek nationalism, nor a lack of knowledge about them (hopefully).

    So if anyone hates Greece my immediate reaction is usually compassion.

    It took a LOT of compassion and tolerance, to LOVE Greece.

  177. @Christ
    Welcome. From now on your comments will not require moderation.

    Odysseas Elytis was himself quite disgusted with all the dark aspects of Greek history, but this did not stop him from loving Greece, as well as from exorcising the daemons of Greek history by invoking them poetically, e.g. in his book «Little Nautilus»…
    In that book (if I remember correctly) he recited SEVEN despicable murders of famous people in Greek history, in the context of a CATHARTIC PROCESS: Becoming conscious of all the historical Evil in order to transcend it. His kind of transcendence was an immense humanism, expressed poetically.

    It is by recognising all the suffering in history, that we can overcome it;
    Only THEN, can we genuinely love Greece (if we wish).

  178. «There are people who say that Greece should have never expanded to its present borders…»

    Recognising the across-the-board atrocities committed after the dissolution of the ottoman empire is one thing. Judging and damning 19th-20th century nationalism and state expansion by your contemporary standards is another.

    I doubt anyone on this blog doesn’t acknowledge the «suffering of millions» that occurred in ex-Ottoman territories. Yet another strawman, though I can’t say that you didn’t entirely deserve it, Airetike.

    I do see a certain difference between Greek and Macedonian nationalism but the Macedonian state is powerless – leaving the terrorist Basques aside for the time being, omadeon.🙂

  179. @Yep,
    I hope Airetikos FORGIVES my reaction; his intelligent use of several demonisations in ONE paragraph is remarkable, but…
    …does it do ANY good?

    I agree with you that Macedonian nationalism is powerless, at least at the moment.

    Of course, Kuweit was ALSO powerless….😉
    ____

    “If the Macedonians under Alexander the Great could conquer Persia and go as far as India with their armies, I am sure today’s Macedonians can face off a tin-pot neighbourhood bully.”
    – ™ Marko Attila Hoare.

  180. Their silly propaganda aside, they do have a right to name their state Macedonia, no?

    Hoare’s statement then is not wrong, excluding the silly, first part of his statement which I’ve criticized above as well.

  181. And I’m sure that you understood this is what he meant, despite the fact that you believe his audience to consist mostly of Macedonian supernationalists.😉

  182. The first part of the statement is not as innocent as it sounds. It’s an encouragement of Macedonian supernationalism that (coming from a HISTORIAN as well) is an inexcusable error, feeding the core of the problem, with Greece.

    In this case, the essence of their state would be considered offensive by Greece and there is no reason for Greece to say «yes» to their EU membership, or in any other field. It’s an issue of common courtesy and good neighbour relations.

    The name issue is not disconnected from this core of the problem. Personally, I wouldn’t care WHAT they call themselves, if the DEEPER problem didn’t exist. And to be quite frank I don’t think the Greek Macedonian sentiments are negligible, either; NOT MINE personally (NOT being Macedonian in ANY way – thank Goddess)…

    These non-negligible bad feelings will worsen, most probably, if an adjective is not used to QUALIFY the name of their state.

    As regards ethnic identity, nobody can stop them from calling themselves Macedonian. It’s simply not a part of the negotiations. Greek Macedonians will sooner or later have to use an adjective for their own name, for identification.

    One has to give something, to get something. You can’t get something for nothing; Greeks also can’t get something for nothing.

  183. In other words, it IS their right to INSIST being called Macedonia (Republic of Macedonia) without any adjective or other qualifier. Then… they will have to stay out of the EU (etc.) until the moment when…. millions of angry Greeks will feel less angry or less threatened, or whatever.
    However,
    Dr. Hoare is MISTAKEN to think that Greeks will get less angry so soon. It will probably take AT LEAST ONE generation: 20 or 30 years or so… Now… (speaking PRACTICALLY)… (provided -of course- that FYROM behaves well enough)…
    IS the «Republic of Macedonia» prepared to WAIT THAT LONG?
    For the sake of WHAT? -a silly ADJECTIVE in their official name?

    NOTE: THIS question is also asked by some people in their own OPPOSITION.

    OK, now…
    Another thing:

    The SECOND part of his statement «facing off a neighbourhood bully» (etc), is extremely biased. One could easily INVERT the whole statement (since Alexander was Greek) as follows:

    “If the Greek Macedonians under Alexander the Great could conquer Persia and go as far as India with their armies, I am sure today’s Greek Macedonians can face off a tin-pot neighbourhood HOOLIGAN.

    – ™ Dr. George Alexander Hoare – Dr. Hoare’s… Greek CLONE -hehe!😆

  184. Another thing:

    -Dr. Hoare INSISTS that… «Macedonians» should NOT make ANY concessions that will damage their «sense of identity».

    Now… Personally, I don’t give a damn about identity politics, but…
    WHY SHOULD the Greeks make WORSE concessions
    -that CERTAINLY ALSO damage their «sense of identity»?

    The fact that (speaking LEGALISTICALLY, without regard for DEEPER issues) the «right to self-identification» is a legalistic COINCIDENCE that helps the case of one side (FYROM’s)… does NOT lessen the fact that (speaking more deeply, about the CORE of the problem) the damage to Greek identity is much worse.

    The fact that Alexander was Greek IS indisputable among the world’s Historians (except… Dr. Hoare and VERY few others, acting as FYROM’s protectors, like… Danforth perhaps).
    Personally I don’t like Alexander, but I like History books to BE EXACT and tell the TRUTH, throughout the world. For me this issue IS important, because I object to HISTORY being falsified. Now… most Greek sentiments, if one is more nationalistic, are EVEN STRONGER… It’s a PROBLEM.

    Now, given that there IS a very serious problem, for the Greek side, an «identity problem», WHY should it be grossly UNDERESTIMATED in comparison to the «need of a new nation to have an IDENTITY»? They can KEEP their identity, suffering only very minimal (or NEGLIGIBLE) damage, if they accept a composite name.
    O.T.O.H. for Greeks, an unqualified «Macedonia» means…. TOTAL humiliation.

    And… GUESS WHO, is THEN going to PAY THE PRICE for this GROSS NATIONAL HUMILIATION (and Greek Macedonian «identity problem»)?
    – Well, it’s going to be people like… me, for example. People who are targets of GREEK nationalism, for one reason or another.

    I.e.
    I am NOT prepared to say «YES TO GREEK NATIONALISM«,
    JUST because of «western interests» demanding causing it to WORSEN
    (by hurting the feelings of millions of Greeks…
    …while accepting 100% EVERY FYROMian NATIONALIST whim)

    Here is the older post we’ve been discussing today:
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/macedonia-must-defend-europe/
    «GREECE MUST DEFEND EUROPE»
    (WHAT Europe?…)
    In this case…
    Greece has ALSO every right to DEFEND EUROPEAN RATIONALISM, the INTEGRITY OF WORLD HISTORY and of CLASSICAL ARCHEOLOGY, by NOT succumbing to the pressures of a new nation’s IDENTITY PROBLEM to create an ARTIFICIAL WORSE IDENTITY PROBLEM as well as a FALSIFICATION of (CLASSICAL) HISTORY.

  185. Now, I said that…

    The fact that (speaking LEGALISTICALLY, without regard for DEEPER issues) the “right to self-identification” is a legalistic COINCIDENCE that helps the case of one side (FYROM’s)… does NOT lessen the fact that (speaking more deeply, about the CORE of the problem) the damage to Greek identity is much worse.

    Well, the fact is there IS a VERY SERIOUS problem here…
    The UNITED NATIONS have recognised the problem, too:

    This difference had created a tension with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and even the United Nations Security Council had said that there was a difference in the name. This situation had to be solved. In Security Council resolution 1845, the Council had asked the two parties to settle the question under the auspices of the United Nations. This clearly showed that what was in a name had several historical and political implications. It was not a question of a specific denial but the risk of creating tension among identities in the Balkans.

    Source of this quote (a link I gave before):
    http://www.unog.ch/unog/website/news_media.nsf/%28httpNewsByYear_en%29/E70BAE8DBF374DD4C125760F002F9B2B?OpenDocument

  186. Another issue, now, about… GENETICS.

    The «Macedonian» claim to be (mainly) descendants of Alexander and the Ancient Macedonians, BY DEFINITION can NOT contain claims of connections to the Ancient Language of Macedonians, even less so Ancient Macedonian Culture,
    since
    1) There are NO traces of ANY linguistic connections (except FALSE papers that have been REJECTED by the World’s academics)
    2) There is NO connection to Ancient Macedonia due to the Slavic heritage, the Ottoman occupation, etc. etc. …as well as the simple KNOWN fact that Ancient Macedonian culture WAS GREEK after a certain point (Philippe the 2nd) and Alexander’s conquests had tried to spread Greek culture in all the countries he conquered.

    At worst, EVEN IF the DNA was similar, or EVEN IF ancient Macedonians were «not Greek», they were STILL Hellenised to a remarkable extent, even MORE SO than e.g. today’s Arvanites are hellenized.

    Therefore, the ONLY POSSIBLE basis for a «connection» between FYROM Macedonians and Ancient Macedonians is EXCLUSIVELY GENETICS.

    Therefore, the ONLY POSSIBLE nature of such claims is RACIST, by definition.

    O.T.O.H. Any knowledgeable modern Greek KNOWS that the genetic connections between modern Greeks and Alexander are probably VERY WEAK, and the MAIN reason for honouring (if one wishes) Ancient Macedonia are CULTURAL links and Greek linguistic links…

    So, OK: Greece should STOP considering Greek Macedonians to be «descendants of Alexander» (the racist view) and start focusing only on the Cultural and Linguistic connections.

    The Republic of Macedonia, on the other hand, has NO POSSIBILITY for such connections, UNLESS they FALSIFY HISTORY and also dabble in dubious genetic claims (RACIST in their basic essence).

    Ancient Macedonians CONTRIBUTED NOTHING to World Culture except… Military Conquests and… the GREEK CULTURE OF ARISTOTLE (teacher of Alexander), in the GREEK «koini» LANGUAGE adopted by Phillipe 2nd.

  187. Aw, come on Omadeon. You know very well that the supporters of FYROMian propaganda (who usually are fans of Blair & Bush) don’t even recognize the existence of the UN. You are painfully right in pointing out that Hoare’s extreme and incessant encouragement of FYROMian ultra-
    nationalism is not innocent at all; as for Yep calling me a strawman, he needs a reality check. And, Omadeon, I have ZERO tolerance for trolls like j95 and their slanderous, inflammatory tactics. You know what well-managed forums do to trolls: perma-ban and blacklist. And if they need a shrink, it’s not in the forum’s responsibility. Back in 2002, there was a j95-like troll in the car forums. He had a 1.4 Seat Ibiza which he claimed recorded a lap time of 1’14» it the Serres racetrack (impossible even for a Ferrari, much less a VW Polo-based shopping trolley like the Ibiza) and his conduct in the forums consisted of slander, instigation of multiple flame wars, threats of physical violence, even identity theft to get back on a forum he was banned from. Like j95 has axes to grind with Greece (which he demonizes 24/7), so did the aforementioned troll have axes to grind with non-german cars. His attitude wasn’t tolerated for long. He got banned from car forums about 500 (!) times and now it seems he won’t bother us again.

    What sympathy can I have for a psycho who hops on all sorts of different blogs to slander and infuriate others? j95 has slandered you, Ξεψαγμένος, Πάνος Ζέρβας, me, about fifty other commentators… His line is «Greeks are nazis and I’m the only non-nationalist». He even praised bulgarian WW2 atrocities against Greece, when Bulgaria sided with the Nazis. What sympathy should I feel for this pro-nazi attitude?

  188. Heretic
    We have MUCH MORE serious issues to discuss than… the flames of j95. He VERY RARELY flames me, in fact, because I do NOT feel insulted by his views, no matter how biased. He likes teasing people who he thinks are nationalists. Now… you make no secret of the fact you WOULD take the side of Greece just because it’s «OUR side», so… here you go, same story over and over again.

    j95 is an intelligent, knowledgeable AND useful person in OTHER fields than… appreciation of Greece. I have participated in discussions e.g. about racism and nationalism in his blog and have NEVER FOUGHT with him; on other issues he CAN be valuable. Just… don’t discuss Greece with him (or your own patriotism!)… hehe

  189. And seriously, when self-proclaimed (fraudulentlly and falsely) «anti-nationalists» (my ass) like Hoare and j95 promote etnic hate and, openly or not, praise atrocities and crimes of ethnic violence, what credibility do they have? You know, let’s take all of Hoare’s blog posts and post them in a blog that doesn’t have his (undeservedly) prestigious name on it. Make it look like any John Doe’s blog. Everyone will dismiss most of the texts as irrational, nationalist and even suspicious of promoting ethnic hate and violence. Slap Hoare’s name on, though, and everyone ooohs and aaahs all over the «insightful analyses» of the esteemed professor. Thus, we have here a clear abuse of power: Hoare knows he has prestige. And he uses it to provide validity to his hate-speech, which is just one step away from Plevris’ «put the Jews before the firing squad» rants. In this light, Hoare emerges as a very irresponsible (to say the least) individual and the last thing the Balkans need is another preacher of ethnic hate.

  190. OK, so here are MORE IMPORTANT issues (as regards some of Hoare’s claims, which are factually WRONG)
    (links discovered by friend-&-commentator KnowDame):

    http://wapedia.mobi/commons/Atlas_of_Greece?t=4
    Wapedia Commons: Atlas of Greece (2/2)
    4. History of the wider geographical region of Macedonia
    («Not to be confused with the modern Republic of Macedonia»)


    The ethnicities of the Balkan Peninsula in the late 19th century. Source: Pallas Nagy Lexikon, 1897

    and also…
    http://pic.srv104.wapedia.mobi/thumb/78a914488/commons/max/720/900/Greekhistory.GIF?format=jpg,png,gif

  191. If someone who praises the atrocities committed by forces that were Hitler’s allies is not a racist, I don’t know how else he should be called. It’s not a matter of patriotosm, but a matter of honesty, decency and sincerity. j95 IS racist: he hates himself and his felliw citizens because they HAPPEN to have been born Greek. Like Plevris hates Jews. And he sides with ALL nationalisms, as long as they’re against Greece. Is THAT anti-nationalism? I think not. A true anti-nationalist rejects all nationalisms and doesn’t hate any ethnic or national group. Knowing these simple 1+1=2 thingies, whay discussion on racism can j95 validly participate in? None whatsoever. He lacks the moral fiber for it, because he IS racist himself.

  192. @j95

    A few months ago, I received as birthday gift a voucher for a genetic test (no need to advertise the company, let’s say that it traced paternal and maternal line and it was as analytical as it can get). The results showed a clear link with my forefathers in Ancient Greece. This has nothing to do with fringe theories and theorists, but with scientifical testing.

    Regarding Ancient Macedonians and perceptions of their ethnicity, here> it is, straight from the horse’s mouth.

  193. P.S.
    Heretic, you made an important accusation here, which stands out, among all the rest as SERIOUS:

    He even praised bulgarian WW2 atrocities against Greece, when Bulgaria sided with the Nazis. What sympathy should I feel for this pro-nazi attitude?

    If you have evidence for this, please find the link and bring it here. Otherwise, please do NOT make such claims against j95, since they appear as pure «ad hominem» attacks and serious slander. I am NOT denying the possibility you are right; if you are right, we will see…
    As a rule, however, I do NOT take at face value ANY comments by j95 which are based on… anti-Greek bias, anyway.
    (I value OTHER things he says, in OTHER situations, of course).

  194. Yes, he wrote it in Panos Zervas’ blog. It was a comment to a post about Tripolitsa, which he helped veer into a Greek Civil War discussion or in the recent discussion of the Civil War. When someone (I think Ξεψαγμένος) pointed out the Bulgarian atrocities during WW2, j95 said «και λίγα σας κάνανε». Ask Ξεψαγμένος, Πάνος, Δύστροπη Πραγματικότητα…

  195. @Psi
    Thanks for commenting.

    What you say is important, as important as ANY other kind of research, provided it is scientifically sound. Progress in biotechnology is great, these days; one day it might be possible to know almost everything about ALL our ancestors, perhaps…

    @all
    Meanwhile…
    here is another little gift from my dear friend KnowDame:

    (Ethnological Map of the Balkans, 1861).
    A significant finding of KnowDame is (she says) Florina appears as «Flurina» instead of as «Lerin». Check it out, she NEVER goes wrong, in such matters..🙂

  196. A few bits:

    1) 100 Modern historians verify ancient Macedonians were Greek

    (several top historians in the list, e.g. NGL Hammond)

    2) Bibliography about the Bulgarian Origins of Slavs in FYROM

    (state archives, historical documents and more)

    Regarding «self-determination» and «ethnic» versus cultural identity (Macedonians, Athenians, Corinthians and other Greeks), the list of logical fallacies is far too long. But let’s say that in the current geographical definition of Macedonia, the «identity» of one quarter of its population, living in a third of the area, cannot be imposed upon others as the norm – thus making a three quarters majority defining itself according to the wishes of the minority (Greek-Macedonians, Bulgarian-Macedonians, Albanian-Macedonians etc). The majority has rights too. If they don’t wish to be associated with the minority, their rights should be respected.

  197. @Psi,
    I think your last sentence, 100% correct, summarizes the MOST RECENT VERSION of the «name dispute» and also the Greek MODERATE and RATIONAL position:

    The majority has rights too. If they don’t wish to be associated with the minority, their rights should be respected.

    Thanks for the links and the other info…

  198. @Heretic
    How could you… not agree with Psi? hehe….🙂

    I also agree with everything Psi said, although I still haven’t looked at his SECOND link, yet. I leave it aside for the moment since… the main issue is different:
    (Let me explain this a bit)

    I don’t think it’s a good idea to… HURT the citizens of FYROM by continually attacking their identity. Maybe they… decided CONSCIOUSLY to BECOME Macedonian!!!🙂

    Well, this… is fine, by me. What worries me are the rights of Greek Macedonians, as well as (even more importantly) the rights of… INTERNATIONAL HISTORIANS ! (personally I find the latter… many times more important than… the rights of ANY nation or people -hehe).

    I said I am an anti-nationalist. Anti-nationalism means that TRUTH is MUCH more important than ANY national interest.

    So, personally, I might even… strike a kind of deal with Slav Macedonians, that they CAN be called «Macedonia», without an adjective, PROVIDED that they ALSO RESPECT WORLD HISTORY, 100% without ANY falsifications.😆
    (funny, isn’t it, heh? – KEEP the BLOODY NAME, just DON’T FALSIFY HISTORY and don’t pretend you’re someone else…)

    However, ALL they want, is to KEEP the bloody name, SOLELY because of USING it to FALSIFY HISTORY, in order to feel proud of a different, «more glorious» Identity.
    THIS, is BULLSHIT, I think:
    Well, ASK an ALBANIAN of FYROM, to tell you his opinion of such «ancient identity»:
    «Ancient Macedonian Roots» are a threat ALSO to their country’s Albanians.
    So I agree with the Albanian critics. There is a sinister motive in this insistence on exclusivity for the name «Macedonia».
    Therefore, as an anti-nationalist, I DON’T buy this crap; it’s CHEAP NATIONALIST TRICKERY… (and Balkan style… shrewdness… hehe🙂 )

  199. P.S.
    ADDRESSING Dr. Hoare himself, now:

    -As you know (in your own very special field of research) NATO and the UN intervened in Bosnia using MILITARY FORCE, in order to correct certain injustices, etc.

    So, HOW CAN YOU BLAME GREECE for using EXTREMELY MILD, NON-VIOLENT, DIPLOMATIC FORCE, in order to correct a very SERIOUS falsification of HISTORY , as well as a relentless new nationalism which ALSO threatens a big part of this new country’s citizens? (Not to mention hurting the feelings of MILLIONS of Greeks, too)

    Therefore:
    As an anti-nationalist, I support the Greek Veto. IF NECESSARY, FOREVER.

  200. P.S.2
    Alright, if they STILL want to be Macedonians,
    then it’s again… FINE BY ME (hehe)…🙂

    Then, they SHOULD SIGN AN AGREEMENT that makes the NEW OFFICIAL LANGUAGE of the Republic of MacedoniaANCIENT GREEK («kini dialect») and the EU should give them LOTS OF MONEY to TEACH ANCIENT GREEK, eradicating the use of ANY slavic dialect... hehe🙂

    ___
    i.e….

    -DO YOU REALLY, REALLY, WANT ALEXANDER?

    Then…

    TAKE HIM…

    FOLLOW HIM.

    DO AS HE DID…
    😆

    ___
    THEN Greece will be obliged to FORCEFULLY SEND to Macedonia ALL the neo-nazis, for RE-EDUCATION as CULTURALLY GREEK!!!😆

    We have 24+ THOUSAND NEO-NAZIS, over here.

    They are barbarians

    PLEASE TAKE THEM. MAKE THEM… MACEDONIAN, too.😆

  201. Omadeon, you’re evil!😀 You’re even worse than me. Yes, let the EU force Greece to exile its neo-nazis and its religionationalist nutjobs to FYROM. That’d show them what REAL vulgar chauvinism is like. And let’s send the LA.O.SY.DI.SA there as well!

  202. OK, enough… laughter.
    Something more serious now:

    Article 6 of the Law on the Scientific Research Activity, as published in the «Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia» Nos.13/96 and 29/02, proscribes the development of any scientific research on the ethnic identity of the citizens of FYROM. We believe that such obsessive pre-occupation with national identity in the 21st century, coupled with misrepresentation of history, only harms the citizens of FYROM.

    THIS law violates Academic Freedom and the Democratic Academic standards in the rest of Europe. It also OPPRESSES foreign objective researchers who want to do field research about the Ethnology of this country….

    The source for this information is here:
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/victor-friedman.html

    The obvious purpose of this undemocratic law is to prevent scientists from criticising the ultra-nationalism of their own government and their ruling classes (right-wing section of the VMRO; the particular faction who want to HIDE the fact that they had originally been Bulgarian -and not Macedonian- nationalists).

  203. @heretic
    Actually this is true.

    Now….
    If they REALLY, REALLY, want Alexander,
    they CAN also… marry him 😆
    (after some… DNA-cloning / RESURRECTION a-la-Jurassic Park).

    (He was bisexual, anyway, so it’s not a problem WHO marries him)….🙂

    P.S. Maybe then, Alex will also become the new leader of «LAOSYNO«…

  204. @Yep
    Let’s see what you make of THIS, now….🙂

    1) Dr. Hoare persistently refers to a (most probably unreliable) Genetic Study, done by IGENEA, a PRIVATE company…

    but in the meantime…

    2) ALL OFFICIAL scientific research about Ethnic Identity in FYROM (including of course Genetic Studies)…
    …HAS BEEN officially BANNED by their OWN LAW, (Article 6, etc. etc.)
    PROHIBITING ALL SUCH RESEARCH….

  205. «as for Yep calling me a strawman, he needs a reality check.»

    Um no, I called j95’s statement a strawman. I said that you deserved it in that case.

  206. I very rarely used to read Greek Macedonian blogs…
    In fact, some of them have done an excellent job, collecting important DATA.
    E.g. About the Greekness of Alexander the Great:
    http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2007/01/02/ancient-macedonian-testimonies-about-their-ethnicity/
    … and after SUCH evidence, ANY history professor…
    professing the doctrine that «Ancient Macedonians were not Greek»
    should be ashamed of himself (sorry Marko, this is a FACT)…

    After all, in another post, Dr. Hoare expounds his NEW DOCTRINE
    that…. only Historians should recognize genocides
    and that it is NO country’s BUSINESS to recognize a genocide
    (except genocides recognized by the… countries who did them, each by ITSELF)

    While at the same time, he proclaims the DOCTRINE that…
    HISTORIANS are the ONLY people who can DECIDE
    TRUTH about Historical Events
    (e.g. genocides)…

    So,
    If NOT EVEN HISTORIANS tell the TRUTH about history, anymore,
    then… WHO WILL TELL it, Marko?

    Furthermore… (slightly irrelevant here)
    -HOW can we ask NON-historians to «recognize genocides» (eg. Chomsky’s case)

    Of course, if Historians tell LIES for POLITICAL PURPOSES, then…
    WHO will give a damn about History anymore, anyway?

    The LOGIC of all this is the DESTRUCTION of objective Historical TRUTH
    (e.g. if a certain genocide HAS, or HAS NOT occurred)…
    and its replacement by NATIONAL INTEREST, UN-checked,
    relentlessly deciding WHAT IT THINKS best, NO longer answerable
    (for its lies) EVEN TO Historians, let alone… other countries…

    The End-result of all this, is the falsification, indeed PERVERSION of History
    «According to national interest» (or even «western interests«)…

    Well, SORRY Marko, you CAN do better than THIS !

    P.S.
    Actually, he DID do sllightly (or more than slightly) better than this.
    I recommend the post:
    http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/the-armenian-genocide-should-be-recognised-by-historians-not-by-states/
    Which is far more explanatory than I thought (before reading it).
    He DOES have a point, as regards genocides:
    That ALL of them should be recognised,
    not just those recognised by parliaments because of powerful lobbies..
    So, OK. In principle, it IS correct…

    P.S.2 about the Armenian genocide, it’s worth reading what Dr. Hoare says:

    The Armenian Genocide happened.

    As a historian, I am proud to say that I have always referred openly to the Armenian genocide; to the genocide of the native Americans; to the Soviet genocide of the Chechens, Crimean Tatars and others; to the Ustasha and Chetnik genocides in Axis-occupied Yugoslavia during World War II; and to the Bosnian genocide of the 1990s – both when writing about these topics and when teaching my students. If that ever means that some doors are closed to me that might otherwise be open, so be it. Some of us, at least, value our integrity more than our careers or our connections.

    NOTE: Alexander’s case NOT being a… genocide, it’s LOGICAL.😉

    The Armenian case is perhaps alone, at least among the cases of genocide with which I am at all familiar, in that some historians who are in other respects actually very serious and competent are ranked among the deniers.

    Ah well,
    I wish he had the same open-mindedness about… Noam Chomsky and Srebrenica!🙂

  207. @Heretic
    I’m sure Yep is a very cool person… Don’t worry!

    Now…
    I think we must try to see OTHER facets, of all this…

    E.g. to WHAT extent, Dr. Hoare, when he proclaims his own ethics (which you challenged -and QUITE reasonably so)…

    Some of us, at least, value our integrity more than our careers or our connections.

    …he (1) confesses that THE MAJORITY of historians are CORRUPT, valuing their careers and connections more than their integrity…

    …and (2) gives us a small HINT about WHY he… (probably even consciously) LIED, about Alexander and the Macedonians: -Because he PROBABLY thinks it’s not as ETHICALLY SERIOUS, an issue, as a genocide (for instance)…
    Well, it IS.
    Sorry…
    EVEN if the majority of historians have no integrity (as he says)
    We HAVE to condemn ANY lack of integrity,
    EVEN in relatively «minor issues» like this.
    (which for Greeks and FYROMians is a VERY hot issue)

  208. I really think Dr. Hoare should read carefully and take into very serious consideration the text of a link given previously.

    It’s a text of high standards, written and signed by a number of historians:
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/victor-friedman.html

    ….As scholars and academics, some of us students of Macedonian history and culture, we wish to offer an alternative perspective and rebut Friedman’s views and assertions in regard to the identity of the modern Greek nation and the true nature of the current dispute between Greece and FYROM. It should be noted that, prior to our decision to write this letter, we invited Dr. Friedman to debate his views in the Hellenic Electronic Center/Professors’ Forum*, but he declined our invitation.

    I also looked into the following (brought here by «Psi»)
    100 Modern historians verify ancient Macedonians were Greek
    and consider it to be of very high value, just like the «Letter to Obama»
    http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

    …as well as the «Ancient Macedonian testimonies about their Ethnicity«.

    In any case, historians who DENY ALL THIS are unlikely to be regarded positively, by MOST of their colleagues in Ancient History, throughout the world. And there are no «nationalist» reasons for this, at all.

    Perhaps another list of historians and classical archaeologists, who agree with FYROM’s view of Ancient History, should be compiled (if it doesn’t already exist). However, if this list is to be trustworthy, it must NOT include historians specialised in totally different areas and periods of history than Classical Antiquity (i.e. by definition, this list can NOT include Dr. Hoare). My guess is that THIS list will be VERY SHORT.

  209. And now…
    A VERY SPECIAL GIFT to ALL commentators and readers
    The EMERGING Archaeo-MACEDONIAN... NEO-NAZI PARTY….
    Typical Party-members:

    To see Big Alex on a T-shirt, SCROLL down and… put the COT [*] down😆
    [*]Cot, kota = Greek for chicken.

    The OFFICIAL SITE of the
    «Macedonian BLOOD and HONOUR» ( NEO-NAZI ) PARTY, is this:

    http://www.bhmacedonia.kk5.org/

    МАКЕДОНИЈА НА МАКЕДОНЦИТЕ !!!
    ЧИСТА И ОБЕДИНЕТА МАКЕДОНИЈА !!!

    Google Translation (use «auto-detect language»):

    Macedonia for the Macedonians!
    CLEAN AND UNITED MACEDONIA

    😆

  210. «CLEAN AND UNITED MACEDONIA»? So what, should we expect these neo-nazis, fueled by Hoare’s macedonist propaganda, to start killing Albanians?

    Maybe I should grab me a bucket of pop-corn, if we’re to watch an action film with lots of explodey stuff.

  211. Also, Hoare and everyone else like him who endorses and promotes this ridiculous, neo-nazi ultra-nationalism, should consider the possibility of an economic isolation of FYROM. For instance, the cash floodgates from Greek investors (who happen to own a significant part of FYROMian economy) could just close. And if the rest of NATO decides to come down on FYROM’s ultra-nationalist government like a ton of bricks, you might end up seeing unemployment going way off the meter.

    Has anyone of these populists ever thought about that? Because, seriously, if I were a Greek investor and saw this kind of crap becoming a matter to worry about, I’d move my factories to Bulgaria or Albania in a picosecond.

  212. Good morning…

    Also, Hoare and everyone else like him who endorses and promotes this ridiculous, neo-nazi ultra-nationalism…

    Well, I don’t think it’s a good idea to call it «neo-nazi», JUST BECAUSE of a fringe-site of neo-nazi lunatics… (that I found for a laugh). Let’s be fair!…🙂

    As regard Greek capitalists, they will NOT go away so easily; this country is for them the BEST: Ultra-nationalism draws all public attention, away from serious problems, e.g. the EXTREMELY LOW WAGES (lowest in the Balkans) offered by Greek businessmen to their employees there, without respect for basic workers’ rights .
    There was an article with a detailed report on this; I might find the link and add it as an update (alas in Greek).

    Now, Greek capitalists are shrewd: All their businesses refer to the country as «Macedonia» (without a qualifier) and they don’t give a damn about the name-dispute.
    They can also become good friends of the country’s ruling elite, which has its origins in BULGARIAN NATIONALISM (the right-wing faction of the VMRO).
    This VMRO-faction promotes «Archaeo-macedonism» in order to HIDE the fact that it was originally a BULGARIAN patriotic right-wing movement (for uniting geographic Macedonia with Bulgaria)…

  213. P.S.
    The «UNITED MACEDONIA» slogan is of course totally irredentist: It means conquering the (richer) area of Greek Macedonia. Well, this is RIDICULOUS, of course; besides, all those paranoid Greek nationalists who fear such a catastrophe (comparing it with… Kosovo) disregard the simple fact that the Greek Macedonian population is totally Greek now and that only 3-4 thousand people vote for the Nationalist Rainbow party in Greece (supporting the… motherland up North)…

    However, there IS a way, in which the wildest dreams of FYROM’s nationalists CAN become reality, in the remote future:
    -If their Archaeo-Macedonism succeeds to bully so much (and provoke SO much hatred by) Greek Macedonian nationalists that one day… Greek Macedonia declares independence from the rest of Greece, attacks FYROM and causes a… NATO intervention to save the «victim»…🙂

    (meanwhile, after _many_ years, MAYBE there will be more indoctrination of SOME Greek Macedonians to support their «brothers» in the North-west, causing a new Civil War; We just DON’t know. So it’s better to STOP this trash NOW).

  214. P.S.2
    I really do NOT trust Macedonians. BOTH Greek AND Slav Macedonians. If we let them continue this shit, MORE shit will happen. THIS is why I think the composite name will make the Greek side more relaxed and the Slavic side more… sane.

    As a result, even though I am an anti-nationalist, I support the official Greek veto against FYROM’s entry in the EU; I don’t even feel that solving the name-issue is enough: -It’s the Archaeo-macedonism and the irredentism, which must be stopped, in order for this unfortunate country to become a CIVILISED, friendly partner of Greece and the rest of Europe.

    P.S.3 (mostly for non-Greek readers and… Dr. Hoare):
    ANOTHER anti-nationalist Greek blogger (and book author) who supports the same anti-nationalist position, IN FAVOUR of the Composite Name AND ALSO the Greek VETO, is Mr. Panos Zervas: http://panosz.wordpress.com

  215. «I really do NOT trust Macedonians. BOTH Greek AND Slav Macedonians.»

    I’m toootally telling my Florinian acquaintances this.🙂

    I like and agree with much of what you write, omadeon, including (especially?) your usually mentioned «demonisation», that is unfortunately too frequent and an element of extreme nationalism to boot, but I’ll respectfully disagree with much of your stance on this particular matter.

  216. 100 Modern historians verify ancient Macedonians were Greek

    Reminds me of the 29 washing-machine makers that recommend Skip. And for a good reason, I should think.

  217. 346 historians (latest count)

    Still less than 0.1% of historians.

    And I believe there is a special place in hell reserved for all them assholes, going around using the term «Greek» as if it means the same thing today and 2000 years ago.

  218. There _definitely_ is a special place in hell reserved for Balkan fucktards using «the number of historians supporting our view» as an argument for _anything_.

  219. @j95

    346 historians (latest count)

    Still less than 0.1% of historians.

    I am sorry,
    they are a much larger proportion of Classical Antiquity Historians. Probably the vast majority (nearly… ALL of them). (sorry: I meant «recognized» and «leading» historians).

    If you find others, who disagree, while being specialized in
    Classical Antiquity and Greek History, please let me know
    (Greeks AND FYROMians EXCLUDED – for fairness).

    There _definitely_ is a special place in hell reserved for Balkan fucktards using “the number of historians supporting our view” as an argument for _anything_.

    And definitely a WORSE place in hell, for Balkan fucktards who support their view using FALSE EVIDENCE (destroying the integrity of commonly accepted and proved FACTS).

    I quite frankly don’t give a damn for «our view» or «their view».
    Count me out of it. I don’t even believe they (=we) are «true ancestors» of Big Alex.
    It’s only the culture that counts.

    ______

    To put it simply, it’s as if George Bush took pride on the fact that the Anasazi people were “Americans”.

    There is no doubt that settlers from Asia Minor are less related to Ancient Macedonians than some local people, etc. etc.

    However, I don’t really discuss THESE people’s origins.

    I only discuss the NATURE (language, culture, etc) and ethnicity of ANCIENT people.

  220. P.S.
    MY proposed SOLUTION to all this bullshit is very simple, but… technologically UNFEASIBLE, for the next… 100 years or so::mrgreen:
    Very simply… RESURRECT some Ancient Macedonians, using the DNA of ancient… bones, implement MUTATIONS in their DNA, to acquire an average life-span of (say) 500 years, and then… multiply them through cloning, to an optimum population of (say) 50,000 enhanced specimens, to… re-colonize All (geographic) Macedonia.

    They will be NEEDED, since the (mortal) Old Humanity(=we) will probably be ALMOST extinct, by that time (as well as degenerateas ALWAYS).
    😆

    P.S.2 Ancient DNA will probably be proved… more trustworthy, at that time, since it… is probably free of malicious mutations due to pollution (during the last 2 thousand years so).🙂

  221. Omadeon, do you actually believe in those run-of-the-mill «continuity» arguments and do you think that ancient history or what the ancient Macedonians were should have a bearing on modern political matters?

    I’m asking since j95 seems to believe you do.

  222. NO. (neither)

    But… there is -PERHAPS- something ELSE:

    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/ethnic/
    («Morphic Fields and Ethnic Collective Consciousness»)

    (WE DON’T KNOW YET)

    _____
    P.S. I lived in England. My experience of the local «morphic field» was SO intense at the time that I… ALMOST became English.

    Coming back to Greece was an awesome experience of being IN BETWEEN two quite distinct collective morphic fields, which are hardly noticeable by anyone living in ONLY ONE at a time. I don’t experience this anymore (at least the way it was...)

    ___
    P.S.2
    Many years later, after a long absence from the UK, I came back there; experiencing a kind of awesome «morphic rendezvous» with the «Old Field», not only the feeling itself (or the energy everywhere) but as if… «UK-time» had NOT passed, for me, at all. And whenever I looked at the trees, the houses, the landscape, or anything, I was AGAIN seeing everything with «English eyes», all over again; as if… re-entering a «parallel Universe of Perception», where the Collective Morphic field affects ALL our senses. Everything we see, everything we touch and -of course- everything we THINK, is perhaps structured (or influenced to a large extent) by this… invisible «Collective field» (of each PLACE, not nation, nor country, but PLACE). However, this «PLACE» could include almost all the UK; it’s boundaries were not discernible. And a hierarchy of «places» exists all the time, with «sub-places» and «hyper-places». Go figure…🙂

    _____
    Morphic fields probably also exist in dance music, festivities of all kinds, even… events like marriages with numerous guests.

    Some people currently pay up to… 25 or 30 euros, JUST to experience the Collective Energy Field of strangers in a Club; if they really just wanted to hear music, they could just as easily do it at home. Moreover, I’m not even talking about people who don’t go alone…

    The collective morphic field of an ideology, is of course of very special interest. But to start investigating it, one must be FREE of ALL BIAS «against the mentality of the HERD» (a distinct preoccupation of j95, in fact)…🙂

    ________
    P.S.3 And -of course- Dr. Hoare has explicitly stated that he… hates Clubbing !🙂
    Proof:
    http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2008/08/the-normblog-profile-258-marko-attila-hoare.html

    (QUESTION) What commonly enjoyed activities do you regard as a waste of time?
    (ANSWER) Going clubbing; watching sport on television; praying to God; obsessing over houses, cars and consumer goods.

  223. The main problem with those people who feel obliged to always be «against the mentality of the herd» and act as if EVERYONE else is wrong is that they usually don’t have even 1% of Gregory House’s intelligence – and even House admits he’s wrong.

    Then again, you need to be intelligent to see that you were mistaken – and you need to be a decent person to admit you were mistaken.

  224. @Heretic,
    I AGREE 100%.

    But… «let 1000 flowers blossom»
    (as chairman Mao said, who loved… cutting them:mrgreen: )
    ________
    P.S.
    j95 is wrong, in (forgetting) this very basic general fact (or rule):

    TRUTH liberates.
    -ALWAYS !!!

    e.g. the TRUTH about ancient history (that Macedonians WERE Greek)
    but together with ALL the OTHER historical truths
    (many of which were conveniently suppressed or misrepresented)…
    EVEN truths that are VERY unpleasant for the Greeks, as well…
    is the ONLY thing that CAN liberate them ALL (both Greeks AND Slavs)
    from their CONSTANT preoccupations about their ancestors,
    their «national pride» (MY ASS)…
    and so on…

    Dr. Hoare’s PRINCIPLES are CORRECT :

    i.e. ALL genocides and ALL Historical events SHOULD be recognised.
    NOT just those that boost our Collective Consciousness
    (in a false way -since it IS a FALSE consciousness, IFF it NEEDS the boost).
    He does not seem to APPLY his own principles, though.

    However, I decided NOT to call him names or judge him (like an attorney),
    but to PRESENT THIS CASE, of all his mistakes,
    for the benefit of the… ONLY Goddess worth loving FOREVER
    (by us… anti-nationalists):🙂

    TRUTH – ™ (or whatever you like to call it)

  225. 😆

    The «European Free Alliance« party is not so bad, though…
    (the EU party where «Rainbow» also belongs).
    It MIGHT exert a positive influence on the «Rainbow» party, too. E.g.
    Basques, Welshmen, Scots… will have a good laugh at Rainbow’s NUMBERS.🙂

    However, with «political advisors» like Nakratzas
    this positive influence might be delayed, for a long time….

    i.e. being biased, NEVER helps anyone, in the end….

  226. P.S.
    Of course, the video shown in the previous comment has been created by Vasko Gligorijevic (a well known dissident of FYROM). It shows the beginning of a HEALTHIER opposition in that country (with the dialogs translated by Vasko).

    I think this post AND -especially- the second half of the discussion can ALSO help Vasko Gligorijevic (most probably).

    For a start, it’s all in English, so he can easily understand it.
    Secondly, it’s NOT full of shit (nationalist ideas, that can seriously mislead him to SUPPOSE that Greek nationalism is correct)…

    So, if anyone knows Vasko, please let him know we ARE here.

  227. To his credit, he actually speaks for himself :

    I have been variously accused of being a neoconservative, Trotskyite and Croat nationalist and a supporter of Islamism and Western imperialism. Depending on how you define these terms, some or all of this may be accurate.

    The terms not being particularly ambiguous, this is a rather honest display of background and motives.
    How someone who doesn’t specifically exclude and ‘may be’ a ‘croat nationalist’ is an anti-nationalist of some sort, is a mystery.

    Unless, of course, it is meant in the manner of Joseph Goebbels being an antinationalist -with respect to french nationalism. You see, he was responsible for the film production in occupied Paris and his orders were for the movies to be as naive as possible, careful not to bolster any nationalistic sentiments in the french public…

  228. Hi Peter,
    These were SHARP observations, on your part.
    And I’m sorry that sometimes comments get delayed.

    Actually…
    I also felt intrigued by this motto (in Dr. Hoare’s blog) and at the very least I took it as a warning, that…
    seeing him in terms of easy labels was NOT a good idea, but a trap where people had fallen into before.

    OTOH. perhaps (I thought) he also WANTED to spread around this idea; that he is beyond easy categorisations. (wow)
    But I STILL don’t make sense of it 100%.🙂

    BTW, what you said about Goebbels and France strikes me as very relevant today (more generally).

  229. There is ONE problem, though… Someone who ENDORSES a nationalist propaganda (whichever that may be) automatically loses the right to say s/he is an anti-nationalist. That’s the way it goes – you can’t be an anti-nationalist (which means that you view nationalism as something bad, as something that MUST be avoided) AND endorse/promote any party’s nationalist propaganda at the same time. It’s one of those cases where the XOR operator is perfectly relevant:

    Anti-nationalist XOR endorser of (any) nationalism

  230. I don’t recall Hoare EVER calling himself an «Anti-nationalist».

    Actually he MIGHT call himself a «post-nationalist», which he often uses as a generally valid term, describing today’s «21st century post-nationalist politics in a globalised world».

  231. Here’s the catch, though:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnationalism

    «Postnationalism describes the process or trend by which nation states and national identities lose their importance relative to supranational and global entities. Although postnationalism is not strictly the antonym of nationalism, the two terms and their associated assumptions are antithetic.»

    Which means, in simple words – because I prefer to speak simply and without fancy-pansy neologisms – , that a postnationalist scholar is AGAINST nationalism as a notion, as an idea.

    This brings forward the question of an identification between postnationalism and anti-nationalism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nationalism

    «Anti-nationalism is the idea that nationalism is undesirable or even dangerous in one form or another, and sometimes, though less often, the idea that all nationalism is dangerous and unfavourable in all cases. Anti-nationalism is, to varying degrees, the antithesis of nationalism.»

    There you have two terms that, despite their differences, are, at their hearts, anti-nationalist. Postnationalism cannot be established and cannot survive in a strongly nationalist context. Thus, it has to eradicate nationalism. Anti-nationalism, on the other hand, is the idea that nationalism is dangerous and undesirable, for all sorts of reasons.

    Now, how can a postnationalist claim to be true to his cause when he sabotages it by ENDORSING a nationalism or two?

    Doesn’t it look like an oxymoron to you?

  232. Well yes, it is a contradiction and you can also say that it’s an oxymoron.

    He can then justify it by claiming to boost the weaker party in a dispute taking sides against the aggressor, etc.

    So, it’s like temporarily supporting the weaker nations for a good cause, which is reducing the worse nationalism of… «neighbourhood bullies», etc.

    If you’re looking for easy ways to demonize, JUST forget it.
    Others have tried before…😆

    No, this is not the way to unravel the Knots of Hoare!🙂

  233. OK,

    Personally I find his assumption that Alexander was an ancestor of «Macedonians» a falsity that stands out; something that no historian would ever say, unless affiliated to them personally, in some way.

    It’s actually quite hard to find historians who agree with this.
    I’ve asked around today once again. NONE was found…

  234. Remember my comment about the Albanian who criticized their national myths, omadeon? Georgievski is one of those Slavic-speakers who looked to the East so it’s easy for him to do so, though nothing he says isn’t true as far as I can tell.

    He is a true politician though, he founded VMRO-DPMNE, now he is a Bulgarian who criticizes Macedonian policy (again rightly, no doubt, but now from a certain distance).

  235. There is also something else that should get our attention: even when we’re trying to support a weaker nation against the local bully (for instance against Israel’s apartheid methods), it is highly irresponsible to support extremism.

    Now, what do you do if the weaker side elects an extremist government? Negotiate even with them, but make the red line visible from outer space. At any rate, you’ll morally isolate the extremists and you’ll eventually lead them to a bitter defeat in the elections.

    But still, no one should entertain ultra-nationalist notions and hare-brained schemes. We Greeks have already suffered enough by adopting such ideas and blindly following them.

    And furthermore, supporting ultra-nationalism makes the academic look like s/he also supports this ideology’s criminal elrment.

  236. Good morning.

    @Yep,
    Well yes «it’s easier» for Georgievski to criticize. But he’s not an ethnic minority; he’s just like every other Slav Macedonian; except he abandoned the country’s prevalent Coffee-house Mythology by walking into the Bulgarian embassy for a… cup of coffee. Apparently it was such a nice coffee he came back for more…🙂

    @Heretikos
    Well, I’m sure Dr. Hoare does not support «extremism». On the contrary, he helps a small… fragile nation’s peaceful resistance against the bully of South-East Europe (hehe) who wants to steal the name of this little nation, damaging its fragile identity…

    SO fragile, SO sensitive, this nation. Say «cheeese» to take a photo of the little baby. «Say Macedonia«, for the baby to eat and come to mama (Martha Vourtschevski)…😆
    http://say-macedonia.blogspot.com

    (if you find ANY evidence he supports violence, bombs or Kamikazi-Macedonians let me know; At worst, maybe he indirectly encourages Macedonian Psychic HARAKIRI)

  237. P.S. My close friend KnowDame has found plenty of historical evidence from old encyclopedias (even Brittanica) that she will soon share with us, as regards Dr. Hoare’s preposterous claim (also proclaimed by j95 and by official FYROM propaganda)… that «Macedonia did not exist as a province», before the Name Dispute began. This is WRONG: Macedonia as a Greek province existed for decades.

    This is also a much worse mistake (academically) than the ethnicity of Alexander, since Dr. Hoare is regarded as an expert on modern South-Eastern Europe and is currently the «Section Director for South-East Europe» in HJS (Henry Jackson Society).

    …We should also remember the comment of «Ξεψαγμένος»: https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/dr-hoares-balkan-excesses-need-anti-nationalist-critics/#comment-27049

    P.S.2 As regards the COLONISATION of Greek Macedonia by settlers from Asia Minor (etc), and the Greek State’s policies of forced ethnic homogenisation (that infuriate j95 and others, so very much)… I do NOT deny that such things HAVE happened.

    However… Macedonia itself was regarded as an… (almost Sacred) Ancient Greek Historical Land, by the Greeks, long before the geographic area of Macedonia was largely… conquered (yes, why not? use THIS word as well) by Greece in the Balkan Wars. One could therefore compare this story with… Israel‘s colonisation of Palestine to form Israel (as an Ancient Jewish land that was important for the Jews, etc). – except that Macedonia was NOT Slav-Macedonian but predominantly Muslim with LOTS of Greeks AND Slavs AND other ethnicities, too, already fighting (unlike Palestine).

    Now, although I don’t like at all the nationalist «Ancient Land» dreams or the ethnic cleansing policies (leading to more bloodshed) such aspirations and practices were UNIVERSAL in all the Balkans (the Serbs in Kosovo, the Bulgarians thinking that Macedonia «belonged to them», etc).

    So, the colonisation and everything else that happened, after 1913, would probably happen ANYWAY, if e.g. Bulgaria or Serbia took over that land instead of Greece, since most of the population was NOT Christian but Muslim (and also Jewish in Salonica, etc). ANY Balkan country «conquering» (or if you prefer… «liberating») this land WOULD colonize it, WOULD homogenize it, etc. –How do we know? Because of the historical evidence of what nationalist Bulgarians ALSO did, atrocities that often alienated their own people; sometimes turning Bulgarian peasants against them, changing sides, declaring themselves to be Greek; while still others had ALREADY began thinking of themselves as Greek for various reasons, INCLUDING a possible true kinship with Greek ancestors (we just don’t know if and exactly when this was literally true).
    ______
    EVIDENCE-UPDATE:
    Old Ottoman reliable statistics, showing that BOTH Slavs AND Greeks were mere MINORITIES and that Muslims were the BIGGEST MINORITY (40%) (most Muslims «exchanged», later on): (my translation)

    According to the available statistics, just before Liberation, the population of Macedonia was approximately 1,205,000 inhabitants: 370,000 (31%) Greek-speaking inhabitants, 260,000 (21.5%) Slavic-speaking (BOTH «Exarhian Christian» AND «Patriarchal Christian»), 475,000 Muslims (39,5%), while Jews and all the rest were 98,000 (8%).

    Original Greek:

    Σύμφωνα με τα διαθέσιμα στατιστικά στοιχεία, τις παραμονές της Απελευθέρωσης ο πληθυσμός της Μακεδονίας προσέγγιζε το 1.205.000 κατοίκους, εκ των οποίων οι Ελληνόφωνοι ανέρχονταν μόλις σε 370.000 (ποσοστό 31%), οι Σλαβόφωνοι σε 260.000 (Πατριαρχικοί και Εξαρχικοί) (21,5%), οι Μουσουλμάνοι σε 475.000 άτομα (39,5%), ενώ οι Εβραίοι και οι λοιποί σε 98.000 (ποσοστό 8%).

    Source URL (with lots of other things):
    http://www.imma.edu.gr/imma/history/17.html

    NOTE: Clearly the Greeks were the BIGGEST minority AFTER the Muslims, in this (Ottoman) report; However, they were probably even more, since many Slav-speaking inhabitants self-designated themselves as ethnically Greek. Go figure…
    Of course, there are MANY other statistical reports, of varying degrees of reliability…
    including Bulgarian statistics presenting the Bulgarians or Slavs as MORE than the Greeks, but… STILL less than the Muslims.
    So, we HAVE to conclude ONE fact, for sure: Muslims were the LARGEST minority.

  238. P.S.3
    IF the wider region of (geographic) Macedonia existed today, with the same big mixture of ALL SORTS of ethnicities, etc. (as in the early 20th century) and if it was suddenly liberated of e.g. Turkish rule, WHAT would happen?

    -Most probably, either a…
    1) BLOODY war (as in Yugoslavia)
    OR ELSE a…
    2) multicultural state with a unique variety of ethnicities living together…

    I would certainly prefer the SECOND;
    nationalists would prefer the FIRST.

    YOU decide which is best:
    – More Blood, or a Multicultural Peace?

    Let’s be frank about it, guys: ALL THIS is TRUE. However,
    Let’s be REALISTIC about it, too; NOT indulgent in Historical ANACHRONISM, projecting our MODERN idea of what should have happened, to what ACTUALLY happened. (There are NO «shoulds» for the past, anyway…)
    For me, at least,
    «National Identity» is NOT something to be «proud of», but a mere CONTINGENCY.

    In any case…
    This hypothetical situation is more appropriate for a modern… Computer Game.🙂
    What happened in the past can NOT be reversed.

    Macedonia TODAY is Greek, most of it. And the part of (geographic) Macedonia which belongs to Greece is today (for one reason or the other) almost totally Greek.

    _____
    P.S.4
    Perhaps…
    MOST people would consider bloodshed as MORE probable
    (in the hypothetical dilemma, above).

    Well, I agree !!!

    Since mankind STILL largely consists of NATIONALIST morons,
    THIS sort of shit HAPPENS.🙂

    i.e. I have NO illusions about the FACT that…
    The MAJORITY of Homo Sapious – ™ are simply DELUDED and DANGEROUS. 8)

    NOTE:
    «Homo Sapious» – ™ is my term for Homo Sapiens, since «sapios»=rotten, in Greek.

  239. Now… I am VERY SORRY,
    if patriotic Greek readers have now been… dissapointed; 🙂
    it is NOT my intent to «take them gently by the hand»,
    scratching each other’s backs about how right «we» are...

    SORRY,
    but ABANDONING OUR OWN ILLUSIONS (as Greeks)
    is a PREREQUISITE for demanding from FYROMians
    to ABANDON ALL THEIR ILLUSIONS, too.

    HOW dare they live in their irredentist MYTHS of a «Macedonia enslaved»?
    -or (even worse) of a «Macedonia occupied today«?

    -Well, they dare.
    They are ABLE to believe (and sustain) these LIES,
    simply because we are BIG WANKERS,
    believing our OWN BIG lies.

    There was NEVER such a thing as ANY «Liberation» of Macedonia,
    there was NEVER such a thing as a «mostly Greek Macedonia»
    OR a «mostly Slavic Macedonia», OR a «Bulgarian Macedonia»,
    OR a «Macedonia for Macedonians».

    ALL this I believe is BULLSHIT.

    ALL «Macedonian Wars» were full of shit.

    GET OVER IT, Slavs AND Greeks…

    take an aspirin for your headache, or say…

    «Vive La France»! 😆
    (Have some «Salade Macedoine«…)🙂

    According to the etymologist Juan Antonio Cincunegui, the word Macedonia was popularised at the end of the 18th Century to refer to mixed fruit salad It is sometimes said that it refers to the ethnic mixture in Ottoman 19th century Macedonia, but the chronology and contemporary sources do not support this interpretation. Macedoine can be used of any medley of unrelated things, not necessarily edible.

  240. As regards the ethnicity of early Slav-Macedonians, here is a remarkable extract from an official University paper, written by a Bulgarian, discussing the early phase of political activism by Slav-speaking Bulgarian Macedonians in 1902:

    ….In the article “Political separatism” the revolutionaries promoted as a basic slogan William Gladstone’s expression ‘Macedonia for the Macedonians’ (Makedonija za makedoncite) held to express the principle of autonomy and of ‘political separatism’. Already the beginning of the text clearly states the meaning of these terms: it is a question of separation of Macedonia vis-à-vis ‘the idea of Greater Bulgaria, or Greater Serbia, or Greater Greece’. The concrete stakes of this agenda are also explained: Macedonia is endangered by ‘greater or smaller states’ and while the ‘small states of the Balkan peninsula’ could not solve the Macedonian question, which is of ‘European importance’, they only create conditions that would enable their territorial expansion and the partitioning of Macedonia. ‘Greeks’ and ‘Serbs’ are directly accused of such ambitions. However, the Bulgarian Principality is also condemned of ‘speculating’ with the ‘unhappy Macedonia’ in favor of its ‘ephemeral’ political interests. In front of the ‘harm’ which the Balkan states are doing to the cause of ‘Macedonian freedom’, the Macedonian population (makedonskoto naselenie) is considered to be a partisan of an idea other than ‘Greater Bulgaria’ of San-Stefano.

    However, contrary to the impression of researchers who believe that the Internal organization espoused a ‘Macedonian national consciousness’, the local revolutionaries declare their conviction that the ‘majority’ of the Christian population of Macedonia is ‘Bulgarian’. They clearly reject possible allegations of what they call ‘national separatism’ vis-à-vis the Bulgarians and consider it even ‘immoral’. Though they declare an equal attitude towards all the ‘Macedonian populations’, the activists’ tolerance has however at least one significant limit: they denounce particularly the pretensions of Serbia, according to them, creating ‘proselytes’ where she has no ‘compatriots’.
    The text suggests that the integrity of the region implies the ‘conservation’ of the ‘national unity of Bulgarian tribe’ (bâlgarskoto pleme – a term having also a positive meaning in Bulgarian). Paradoxically, through the realization of autonomous Macedonia, it is deemed to remain whole and united through its ‘spiritual culture’, even though politically divided. The other options entail the risk that a part of ‘Bulgarian tribe’ fall under Greek, Serbian or other domination. Nevertheless, by the very abandoning of the Bulgarian united nation-state project, the article attempts to trace a kind of distinct supra-national ideology based on modern liberal principles. Considering themselves ‘protagonists of liberty and culture’, the activists of Internal organization oppose what they call ‘denationalization’ not only of their own but also of other ‘peoples’ (narodi). The article gives also long-term aspects of Macedonian autonomy that has at stakes the ‘higher idea’ of an eventual establishment of a ‘Balkan confederation’.
    However, some basic ambiguities should be taken into account: for instance, the ‘guarantee’ for the preservation of the others’ culture stems from ‘the character of the Bulgarian tribe’ that, according to Macedonian revolutionaries, could be ‘proud of its tolerance’ in opposition to ‘Romanians, Serbs and Greeks’. Hence, the administration of ‘autonomous Macedonia’ will rely on a ‘tolerant’ majority, thanks to which all the ‘Macedonian populations’ would be united in ‘one political entity’.

    source: page 6 of Tchavdar Marinov’s “WE, THE MACEDONIANS”: THE PATHS OF MACEDONIAN SUPRA-NATIONALISM (1878-1912).
    http://www.cas.bg/en/cas-finalized-programmes/p-we-the-macedonians-the-paths-of-macedonian-supra-nationalism-1878-1912-102.html

    MY CONCLUSIONS:

    So, «Macedonia» was indeed a political… salad: The word was used NOT as an ethnic designation, but in order to facilitate the political autonomy and the best eventual emancipation of a multi-cultural (geographic) Macedonia, assumed (or hoped) to be DOMINATED by ethnic BULGARIANS, who would -nevertheless- ALSO behave with… «tolerance» towards other (non-Bulgarian) ethnicities…

    Well, I DO wonder IF such.. «tolerance» still exists today (or if it… EVER existed)!😆

  241. As regards the ethnicity of early Slav-Macedonians, here is a remarkable extract from an official University paper, written by a Bulgarian, discussing the early phase of political activism by Slav-speaking Bulgarian Macedonians

    This has nothing to do with the ethnicity of Macedonians now. Fucking elementary anti-nationalism.

  242. @j95
    Correct.
    So?🙂

    WHERE IS THE TOLERANCE NOW?
    (towards… NON-Bulgarian Macedonians? – including Greeks of course?)

    (the point is ELSEWHERE…)

    I repeat:

    …the ‘guarantee’ for the preservation of the others’ culture stems from ‘the character of the Bulgarian tribe’ that, according to Macedonian revolutionaries, could be ‘proud of its tolerance’ in opposition to ‘Romanians, Serbs and Greeks’. Hence, the administration of ‘autonomous Macedonia’ will rely on a ‘tolerant’ majority, thanks to which all the ‘Macedonian populations’ would be united in ‘one political entity’.

    Republic of… INTOLERANT Macedonia? heh?😆
    tsk, tsk, tsk…

    ___
    P.S. I am TOO fed up of… INTOLERANT Greeks, too!🙂

  243. P.S.2
    Their descendants’ New State,
    is NOT EVEN fuckin’ tolerant towards… their OWN NATURE,
    i.e. ANYONE in F.Y.R.O.M. declaring himself a simple BULGARIAN today!
    (FORGET about those who think they are Serbs and Greeks…)

    Besides…
    We could USE some of that, traditional «Bulgarian tolerance«,
    to solve the bloody problem, with… Greece.🙂

    (+1 to Georgievski…🙂 )

    ________
    P.S.3
    Please note the DATE of those early Bulgaro-Macedonian declarations:
    ******
    1902
    ******
    (Which shows a LOT of things… I don’t even need to spell-out)

  244. Now, some… funny news, about the emerging CONFUSION between the «Republic of…» and Greek Macedonia, because of the unresolved name dispute.

    NOTE: Be… patient, till the END of this; THEN the funny part will be revealed…😉

    It’s from a CROATIAN News Site (excuse occasional… English Syntax errors):

    Bomb attack in Athens Stock Exchange

    Greek leftists who set up the explosives wanted to destroy the exchange, and two smaller attacks took place in Thessaloniki in front of Macedonian embassy.

    […]
    Attacks against Macedonian Embassy in Thessaloniki

    At approximately the same time two smaller attacks occurred in front of Macedonian Embassy in Thessaloniki. Police are investigating the link between these two attacks and paying close attention to University of Thessaloniki known for its involvement with anarchists who previously took similar steps.

    […]

    Long-term bilateral negotiations between Macedonia and Greece have not managed to resolve the dispute that has risen over Macedonia’s name. Greece blocked Macedonia’s NATO accession and is currently slowing down their European Union membership. It is speculated that this might the cause of attacks.

    http://www.javno.com/en-world/bomb-attack-in-athens-stock-exchange_274909

    ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT… Except for one thing:

    -NOBODY attacked the «Macedonian Embassy».

    The Croatian author made a big mistake:

    -That building was NOT the «Macedonian Embassy».

    Oh no, no, no…
    -It was the «Greek MINISTRY of MACEDONIA and THRACE», instead!🙂

    _________
    P.S.
    Special thanks to KnowDame, who… googled this out…

    _______
    P.S.2

    …»It is speculated that this might the cause of attacks….»

    Yeah, right;
    Macedonian ouzo was «the cause of attacks» (sic);

    -or else it was that rotten… Macedonian cheese (WHICH one? -The Greek?)

    Say «Macedonia», say «FETA cheeeeese»….😆

  245. ROFLMAO. That was hilarious yet extremely sad. I loved the «speculations» at the end.

    I’ve come to expect no better from journalists – sorry to the few decent journalists out there.

  246. 😆
    I laughed a lot, myself (discussing this with KnowDame)…

    More important national differences,
    apparently exist in the… CHEESE.

    Say «Cheeeese»
    Say «Macedonian Cheeeese»😆

    P.S. «Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s CHEESE» is clearly NOT the AUTHENTIC Macedonian CHEESE…

    Many, many years ago, I had predicted that one day, ALL Greek Macedonian products will be FORCED to use a national qualifier:
    e.g. «Greek Macedonian Halva», instead of «Macedonian Halva», etc.

  247. There’s still another option. FYROM seems to have very little macedonian territory and a hefty part of paeonian – and, if they want a link to a «glorious» ancient past, the Paeonians were mighty soldiers… Why not assume that identity, which isn’t copyrighted by anyone yet, while it’s still up for grabs? But oh yes, I forgot: Paeonia didn’t have access to the sea, so it can’t be used for future irredentist pipedreams (which might lead to terrorist attacks)…

  248. Heretic, hi…

    Actually (logically speaking) it is true, that modern FYROM on the map roughly coincides with Ancient Paeonia…

    It is up to THEM to decide such things. Nobody can (or should) FORCE anyone.

    ALL Greece is doing (or SHOULD be doing) on a diplomatic level, is questioning the new nation’s political and social WILL for peace, co-existence and cooperation.

    NOT everything is… money and (Greek) supermarkets (in Skopje)! 🙂

    If a new candidate E.U. country WANTS (so desperately in fact) to JOIN the E.U. then... there are certain serious prerequisites.
    - That's ALL.

    See also: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/21934/

    E.U. membership IS (or should be) like this:

    There is a party going on; a party open to ANYONE wanting to join, provided one satisfies certain conditions; e.g. one can provably become a friend of everyone else, who is already inside; or who (at the very least) will NEVER become an enemy of anyone else.🙂

    -And it’s NOT (just) a… political party, of course! 😉

    ALL we (Greeks) can do is make SOME suggestions.

    It’s also necessary to do our research in books, in the net, everywhere; comparing facts and figures, cross-checking all our findings, and so on.

    E.g. it took my friend KnowDame a few days, to finish cross-checking population data cited by several authors, BOTH Greeks AND Slavs (including Greek authors who support very strongly the Slavic side, like Lithoxoou).

    It will also take quite a few hours, for me to sort-out all the geographic (and other) data. from old encyclopedias and books (found by KnowDame in the last few days) as regards the FALLACY (spread around by anti-Greek propaganda) that «there was no Greek province called ‘Macedonia’ before 1989» (or 1985 or whatever)…

    ______
    (I tried out some… new WordPress features, today, like the tag «code»; however , the tag «img» doesn’t seem to work; hehe…)

  249. I’m sorry I have not been able to clear up a few things over the past few weeks. I have a paper deadline I have to meet (fortunately it’s been moved to Sunday) and I promised myself not to comment until I finish – I had started a long structured answer but it’s in no position to be posted as a comment. And in fact after a rambling 290+ comments I’m not sure anyone reading this apart from George and maybe Heretic (not even j95) will read this but I will break my promise to myself for a much shorter comment (than originally planned for):
    a) The 1989 «no Macedonia name» fallacy is such a preposterous inaccuracy that no-one claiming to be serious (whether it is Hoare or j95) can claim it without deliberately lying. Especially if we are talking about j95 who grew up in Greece at that time. In the case of Hoare – who makes it with the authority of a scholar (who obviously did not check his sources) it can only be described as a deliberate libel (with all the seriousness of the use of such a word).
    b) Unfortunately it is very widely circulated piece of propaganda meant to show that Greeks were actually afraid to use the term «Macedonia». Hoare alludes to that when he claims «Having spent the best part of the twentieth century forcibly assimilating or dispossessing its own Slavic Macedonian minority, it was also presumably only in 1989 that Greece felt it was safe to do this, without undermining this same policy of national homogenisation.»
    c) It is a piece of propaganda originating in their rabidly anti-Greek diaspora that has now moved back to the country itself and is espoused (in official interviews) by their Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki himself (alongside another deliberate lie that the Greek army is 240,000 strong! I wish!)
    d) The Macedonian Heritage website has fortunately since quite some time now published online a book showing how untrue this statement (and similar ones) are:
    http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/MacedoniaTerm/index.html
    Especially for the part regarding the official use of the term:
    http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/MacedoniaTerm/pdf/Macedonia_Term_ch2_pp24-31.pdf
    e) That said, people that like to claim «what is true is what should be national and not the other way around» like Nikos Dimou have over and over again deliberately lied about this very issue: «Το «Μακεδόνας», στην Βόρεια Ελλάδα, ήταν απαγορευμένη λέξη.» Had they written that to self-identify as Macedonian in a context which made it clear you meant «non-Greek» used to get one in trouble (as it automatically labelled you as a Communist which was a crime in itself thanks to the infamous ιδιώνυμο. But that is not what they write – I guess all the nice talk about the truth is just that. The end (attacking Greece and Greeks) justifies the means (lying).
    f) The effect of this propaganda on the other side cannot be overstated: It reinforces their conviction that not only their land but also their identity is being «stolen» by Greeks who used to deny there even existed such a thing as Macedonia etc. etc. It is a piece of very damaging propaganda for the future relations of the two peoples (whenever and however the issue – which goes beyond the name – gets resolved) and «anti-nationalists» (my ass) like Hoare, Dimou and j95 that propagate such trash do a great disservice to both the truth and the prospects for a peaceful future.
    g) Finally the idiocy of the whole argument (that a person that managed to finish a Ph.D. should be ashamed to have put forth) can be seen in that the ministry changed name from «Ministry of Northern Greece» to «Ministry of Macedonia AND THRACE».

    A few other points:
    i) Hoare’s axe (for grinding). According to his own admission he got in a fight (verbal spat from what I understood) with two Greek students as an undergrad in Cambridge because of the Macedonian issue. I had gotten into a virtual spat with someone like him about that time – he was arguing that both Belgrade and Athens needed to be nuked (yep, nuked with good-old British nukes on American Trident missiles launched from British submarines I guess) for their role in messing up the peaceful Croats/Macedonians respectively.
    So nothing like a Greek messing with his love life or so.
    ii) Regarding the wars of statistics about Ottoman Macedonia – they are highly variable on what the bounds used are. The Greek percentage is different if one considers only Greek Macedonia as opposed to the «United Macedonia» of the irredentist maps and yet different if one considers the three villayets (Kossovo, Monastir and Selanik) that spanned all of the various regions that could have been described Macedonian back then. Lithoksou’s favorite source, the Bulgarian Vasil Kanchov
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasil_Kanchov
    purposefully excludes Pieria and Thassos from his maps to lessen the percentage of Greeks.
    http://www.promacedonia.org/vk/index.html
    Wilkinson’s book “Maps and Politics: A Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia” is a real eye-opener for anyone reading it – unfortunately it is out-of-print and difficult to find even in university libraries.
    iii) The Greek side has been anything but a group of angels in the Macedonian conflict but for Hoare to use Kazantzakis to present Greeks as the only perpetrators of atrocities is indicative of his regard for historical accuracy when it opposes the point he wants to make. Had Greece not been on the winning side in the end I have no doubt the numerical balance of war crimes would have been against it (as it was in conflicts it lost).

    Also George it would make things far more readable if you cleaned up the comments (or promoted the more informative ones to a separate post).

  250. @Ξεψαγμένος
    Thanks a lot for your comment…

    As regards your last sentence / suggestion, something ought to be done. Either move the Macedonia-relevant comments to a new post, or else move the previous ones elsewhere, etc.

    However, as regards the discussion there is now plenty MORE to think about thanks to YOUR last comment!😆

  251. That macedonian-heritage site has some interesting information. Thanks for the links, Ξ.

    This is what I was referring to, some dozen posts above: «The
    name “General Government of Macedonia” (“Geniki Dhioikisi
    Makedhonias”) was retained almost throughout the Interwar
    period, and continued in use even during the German occupation from 1941 to 1944. »

    As for the ministry name change, it’s definitely 1988 after all and not 1985 (like I mistakenly said), 1987 or 1989. See here, for example: http://www.emdydas.gr/files/FEK1205.pdf

    page 16441 «Την απόφαση με αριθμό Υ 704/19.8.1988 του Πρωθυπουργού για τη μετονομασία του Υπουργείου Βόρειας Ελλάδας σε Υπουργείο Μακεδονίας-Θράκης (ΦΕΚ 575 Β’/13/1988)»

    But, again, it’s a weak argument regarding the use of the name Macedonia as has been amply shown. As for the name change, it might have been «politically motivated» but likely due to the possible future dissolution of Yugoslavia and the prominence the former «Socialist Republic of Macedonia» would acquire as a standalone country. It seems like it was just one more way to advertise the Greek use of the name to foreigners.

  252. Good morning Yep,

    Well, yes, it is a gross fallacy to say that a province called «Macedonia» did not exist in Greece before the eighties. To prove this, I uploaded a scanned image of a table from page 318 of (an old edition of) Encyclopedia Britannica:

    (This page, together with others, was scanned by my friend KnowDame yesterday, from a REAL copy of Britannica in a library; NOT on-line).
    In this table, the «region» (διαμέρισμα) of Macedonia is explicitly mentioned as a part of Greece. Greek Macedonia consisted of 13 «Departments» («νομοί») and population statistics are also given in the table, from censuses done as early as 1961 and 1971.

    Ξεψαγμένος’ comment was FULL of very useful information, and also -for the benefit of Slav Macedonian readers– an important honest admission (I’d also make) of a FACT:
    -It is TRUE that Greek atrocities in the Macedonian conflict outnumbered the atrocities of others (Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks)! However, this is mostly because Greece won that war. (This is very typical of most wars, especially in the Balkans. E.g. in Bosnia, in the nineties, it was the Serbs who committed most atrocities, because they were the winners, too; of course their leaders had also partly planned the genocide there).

    Well, I followed some of the links given by ξεψαγμένος, and found this page:
    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/human_r/part1.htm
    («Violations of Human Rights of Macedonian Citizens with a Bulgarian Ethnic Consciousness 1990-1997»).
    Well, THIS is part of what I meant, when I said (to j95) that…
    The «ethnic self-denial» in FYROM takes place IN THE PRESENT; not (just) in relation to antiquity or the remote past.

    The citizens of FYROM have been indoctrinated to accept a non-existent identity (Archeo-Macedonian), while their REAL ethnic identity as Bulgarians (or Slavs very closely related to the Bulgarians) is DENIED and suppressed, in a very short time-span of only a few years, not decades or centuries. Their Bulgarian identity was also explicitly recognised by their great-grandfathers about a hundred years ago (1902) and some of them must STILL remember an era where they FELT Bulgarian (or Serbian). But if any grand-child decides TODAY to continue feeling Bulgarian, this is suppressed…

    We’ve been assured many times, in this blog and elsewhere, that «a zillion minority parties exist» in FYROM (a supposedly very tolerant multicultural state). Well, this is NOT exactly true. The truth is VERY DIFFERENT; Here are some extracts from the document «Violations of Human Rights of Macedonian Citizens with a Bulgarian Ethnic Consciousness»:

    1)

    In 1992, Slavtcho Cekovski tried to establish an association of the Bulgarians in Republic of Macedonia. He even managed to publish one issue of a bulletin called «All- Macedonian Movement for the Rights and Freedom of the Bulgarian Christians and Muslims in the Republic of Macedonia». The authorities banned is activities.

    According to protocol 71-01/91 from March 18th, 1992, many Bulgarian literary language books, booklets and badges with the image of Todor Alexandrov printed on them, were confiscated from the Macedonian citizen Angelko Mitrev (see appendix No 2). On November 16th, 1992, the police conducted a search of his home and according to the protocol, found booklets with the image of Ivan Mihailov, issues of the Bulgarian newspapers «Macedonia» and «Zora» (Dawn), issues of «Macedonian Tribune», published in USA, and the book «VMRO» (IMRO) – written by Ivan Mihailov, published in Brussels, Belgium; all were taken from him. Specifically in the police protocol was written: «REMINDER: all the magazines are printed in Bulgarian» (see appendix No 3). As if using Bulgarian is a horrendous crime! Of course by the term «Bulgarian» the Macedonian police understands the Bulgarian literary norm, which for the displeasure of the Skopje regime remains easily legible and understandable even for Macedonians who come in touch with it for a first time and who by no stretch of imagination could honestly regarded it as a completely foreign language.

    That is how the victim describes the reasons for the search:
    «Few days earlier I met with some friends. We talked about Macedonia. I took out one of the badges with the image of Todor Alexandrov and told one boy: have it and wear on your chest the image of Todor Alexandrov because he is the eagle of Macedonia. These words were heard by a man who used to be an officer in the Serbian Army. We began to argue. Later he went to the police office and told them about me. So they cane home». [16]

    Angelko Mitrev handed to the government of the Republic of Macedonia a written objection, protesting the confiscation of his materials. But according to decision 28/11- 409/ 1-92, his complaint was rejected because: «As he admitted, he was going to spread them among his friends» (see appendix No 4).

    The Macedonian authorities have taken some measures in order to prevent their citizens from visiting Bulgaria. For that reason on April 26th, 1992, it was decided to charge with a fee of 30 DM every Macedonian citizen who was leaving Macedonia for Bulgaria. No such fee was asked from the Macedonian citizens who visited other neighbouring countries.

    All attempts of ethnic Bulgarian organisations to obtain legal registration register continue to be brutally suppressed in the Republic of Macedonia.

    On June 7th, 1993, documents for the registration of organisation called VMRO were launched in the branch of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Ohrid. According to article 1, of the proposed party statute, the organisation was defined as a «democratic, independent, national and political organisation of the Macedonian Bulgarians». According to article 11 of its proposed statute: «VMRO will strive to save the traditions and to revive Bulgarianness (the Slavic traits of the Macedonian Bulgarians) in Macedonia».

    A protocol describing the events of the constituent assembly that took place on June 5th, 1993 was produced. From the conference protocol it is evident Vladimir Paunkovski was elected as chairman and that the constituents rejected the ethnic implications of the term «Macedonian people». They declared:
    «We consider that all the nationalities that inhabit Macedonia have a consciousness that they belong together, so that all of them share the common name «Macedonian people».

    However, the authorities in Skopje refused to register the newly created organisation…

    2)

    Another intellectual, who was put to an enormous mental harassment, was the Macedonian writer Mladen Srbinovski. The reason for the campaign against him were his brave articles in which he openly maintained the idea of the Bulgarian ethnical nature of the Macedonian people. The following are some examples of the qualifications of him written in a single article in a supposedly respectful newspaper:

    «On Bulgarian payroll; an alienated Macedonian; Srbinovski (read Bugarinovski); incurable patological case and an oathbraker; proved to be paid by the Bulgarians and callous fighter the for spread of Bulgarian vrhovist ideas; vrhovist of a high rank in his native country; callous Bulgaromaniac; Srbinovski the Macedonophob; one of the most reliable Bulgarians; mad Bulgarian dog;…his occupator-like macedonophobia and distorted spirituality…»[27] This quotations are indicative of the atmosphere in which the Macedonian intellectuals have to work.

    A very interesting case was the arrest on October 6th, 1995 of the Skopje resident Marija Stoimenova and her husband Georgi Stoimenov. She had the courage to describe the methods of maltreatment used by the Macedonian police (appendix No 8). The reason for her arrest was that she was a relative of Alekso Stoimenov from Strumitsa who at present is a political emigrant in Belgium and a chairman of MPO «Todor Alexandrov» there. At the time of her arrest she needed to go to the toilet. M. Stoimenova describes the behaviour of the police officers in the following way:
    «We stopped and I went to the WC. At the same time a woman went in together with me and stood there next to me while I was performing my most intimate and natural functions. At that very moment I began to ask myself if I was a human being and if I had any human rights.

    The interrogation went on:
    They began making threats. They wanted me to tell them about the first arrival of Alekso Stoimenov; to remember when did he cone? Who did he come with? Why? Through which border did he come? With whom did he meet? What did he talk about? How long did he stay in Macedonia? Whom had he phoned? What were his ideas? What was the aim of his presence in Macedonia? Why did he come here? Whereabout did he go in Macedonia? And if I didn’t tell all that, and all my life during the last 3- 4 years for each day and if I didn’t confess that I have carried out the attempted assassination against Kiro Gligorov, I was going to be finished. They were going to change my outlook and I would stay in prison for about 20 years.

    Than a conversation began like this:
    Come on, tell us when did Alekso Stoimenov come to Skopje for the first time and whom did he meet with? And what did he talk about? What places do I visit? Where do I work? How many times I have been to Bulgaria? What have I brought from Bulgaria and what has Alekso asked me to bring to Skopje»

    Than one of the inspectors told me: «if you don’t want to confess that you have carried out the attempted assassination against Kiro Gligorov, in a gentle way, we can try a ruder one. We don’t have the nerves to wait for you». He went out and five minutes later he came back with a stick. Firstly he began to boast and to hit the wall and the desk with the sick, crying to me «Do you see what will happen to you?» Then he began to push me to the wall and to beat me against it. He was saying: «you are very strong, stronger than the wall. Let me see if you are stronger than the stick …» All that happened to me, the way I was maltreated and humiliated, happened also to my husband with the only difference that he was also mercilessly beaten. On the sixth day I collapsed, being entirely exhausted of hunger and sleeplessness».

    After she was released from the police office, her problems did not finish:
    «We called for an ambulance by the phone and when we said who is phoning they answered: we cannot come; go to the nearest hospital, we can not send you an ambulance. We went throughout Skopje to get a doctor’s certificate for our injuries but none of the doctors wanted to give us a certificate saying: We do not dare. They will imprison us too».

    In the summer of 1996, dozens of Macedonian citizens, who were students in Bulgaria, were called to the police office for an informal conversation. They had been asked if they knew particular persons from VMRO-SMD. If they denied such acquaintances, the inspectors would show them photos of meetings of VMRO-SMD. The students were put under the pressure to drop their studies in Bulgaria.

    In the physical repressions against people with preserved Bulgarian ethnical consciousness, the following officers from the State Security Service have taken part: Itse Damtchevski and Igor Galovski from Bitola; Alexander Tsancharevich from Skopje; Stefan Buzovski from Ohrid. No one has ever held them accountable for their actions.

  253. P.S.
    In fact, very recently, an impressively critical democratic and anti-nationalist opposition has emerged, within FYROM.

    E.g. here is a BRILLIANT, brand new «European Macedonian Manifesto», in English:
    http://www.gem.org.mk/component/content/article/46
    I am in COMPLETE AGREEMENT with MOST (or even all) viewpoints of this manifesto.
    With THESE sane people, we… anti-nationalist (or…. minimally sane) Greeks CAN TALK.
    The home page of this New movement is: http://www.gem.org.mk/index.php
    ….and ANYONE understanding their language PLEASE INFORM us of anything important there.

    P.S.2
    I decided to copy-paste here the ENTIRE MANIFESTO, adding bold, etc. according to my usual.. expressive vices! 🙂

    AGAINST BEING SILENT

    Step by step Macedonia has been made a fertile breeding ground for rebirth of fascism. Public criticizing of the regime is banned. Parapolice formations have been revealed. Xenophobia, racism and intolerance toward marginalized groups have been induced. Cult of genetically clean ethnic origin has been developed. Women are pronounced to be birth machines. Conspiracy theories are swallowed. The damned Greeks, Europe – the prostitute, the inequitable West, the “communism descendants”, the Vlach lobby are the whipping-boys and nowadays Mr. Fuere, too. The government propaganda became an instrument for control of the masses of people. Expressing individuality and critical thought have become anathema. Seed of discord, new separations and conflicts is being sowed. The country is seized by fear.

    Macedonia suffers from the hysterical Ruler who has lost his senses, who proclaimed himself “the last hope of Macedonia”. Macedonia suffers from “the family” and from the VMRO camarilla who feed up the Ruler’s megalomania and the people’s frustration for the purpose of being able to plunder. Plundering and transferring abroad. But Macedonia suffers the most from those who are silent, who say nothing, and who are nonentities in the silent film called “Rebirth”. Pretending to be “citizens”, they only doze in cafés, not letting a ward escape. They watch how the “Rebirth” converts into “destruction”. Fascists are around us, but where are the antifascists?

    Businessmen are tongue-tied.
    They don’t let a word escape about the new nationalizations. They are silent about the deal with the Chinese double deckers. They are silent about the misappropriation in “Swedmilk”. They are silent about the helicopters. They are silent about the electricity. They are silent about the tender procedures. They are silent and hope in vain that the racketeer trio will not knock at their doors. But they knock at doors every day. They racket, penalize and confiscate.

    Intellectuals are silent. Silent are professors, physicians, writers, journalists, architects, artists, commanding officers and bishops. They are tongue-tied and hope to be awarded contracts. They excuse themselves by saying that they have their carriers and their families.
    Cooperators, collaborators, quislings. Instead of shouting – they mutter. They mutter when they criticize them but roar their approval for the government of the followers of Gruevski.

    When a group of Greek bullies tried to prevent the promotion of the Greek-Macedonian dictionary, they were unanimously and publicly labeled as fascists, neo-Nazis and vandals. The politicians, the intellectuals and the journalists competed in their requests the bullies to be identified and punished. Our “last hope” ascertained that this was an issue of the Greek democracy.
    When a group of Macedonian bullies prevented the panel discussion of the “Gemidzii” in the town of Struga, there was no unanimous condemnation in respect that they were fascists, neo-Nazis and vandals. Nobody asked publicly where was the police at that moment to prevent the violence.
    And when the unbridled crowd that run wild “spontaneously” broke up the peace protest on the Skopje square, the judgments that this was an issue of a fascist act, were criticized as being politically incorrect, inappropriate and exaggerated.

    The terms “sorosoids”, “traitors”, “hirelings”, “homosexuals”, are to the taste of the spectators, but “fascists” – it is impermissible! This term makes brawlers slid into a depression, and makes the coffee of those being silent taste bitter.

    Obviously, the double standards became legitimate ones with us. What we identify to be fascism in Greece, we celebrate as patriotism here. Macedonia has become a violent country. The government institutions are on the side of the lawless persons. The Ombudsman has eyes, but is unable to see, and the Assembly wrote the conclusions of its own human rights commission off. The Ministry of Internal Affairs has gone even further. If it had not been a frightening tragedy, we would have a good laugh about the report against the organizers of the protest who were allegedly the offenders because by their vulgar conduct, “quarrelling, shouting and being vulgar”, have disturbed the public order and peace. In the end it would appear that the bullies were beating the protesters in the name of the public order!

    Anyone who publicly stood up for compromise in the name dispute, including also us “the Gemidzii”, was declared to be a traitor and hireling by the Gruevski adherents. But, what a wonder, almost no time has passed and the President of the State, a Gruevski adherent, interceded for a “reasonable compromise”, but the megaphones of the regime have not declared him to be a traitor. They gently accepted the late wisdom of Mr. Ivanov. They re-formed themselves again according to the directive signed by the secretary general of VMRO-DPMNE in respect that they should prepare the people for the unavoidable. After lying to the people for months, cherishing the innocence of the Ruler!

    How much the Rebirth, “expanded and added onto” would cost us? Will there be a hero to estimate the damage caused from financial and political aspect, the financial, political and moral bankruptcy of Macedonia? Who will define the responsibility of the participants and co-participants in the plunder camouflaged as patriotism? The first, “rebirth” distorter of the truth and later vice prime minister for European issues has resigned and disappeared. He shrank away from responsibility for the recent lies and for the debacle and bankruptcy we must encounter this autumn. How long the roll of fugitives from the “rebirth” ship will be?

    Will anyone stay to orchestrate the choral singing about the wisdom of the Ruler who has no equal, except Good and Alexander, when our Titanic will sink and we with her?

    Skopje, 8 July 2009

    (end of manifesto)

    I am also leaving in a minute for an unexpected work-day (possibly 10 or more hours of work to repair a company’s database) so…

    I will NOT answer any comments, probably till tomorrow. Have a nice Saturday, everybody! 🙂

  254. The change in name was prompted not simply by the uncertainty for the future of Yugoslavia (I’m not sure it was so clear at that point that it would break up) but also by the increase in propaganda activity of their ever more fanatical diaspora. For example in 1989 there were unexpected and very disturbing events during the visit to Australia (in order to attend the opening of an exhibition on the Ancient Macedonian archaeological findings) by the then president of the Hellenic Republic Christos Sartzetakis (whom by the way Lithoksou claims to be in fact half «Macedonian» of their type – essentially claiming him to be a traitor to his own people!) Slav Macedonians of the diaspora organized a very vocal reaction to this visit and demanded that the exhibition be changed to reflect their relationship to the ancient Macedonians!

    Also regarding the issue of the national feelings of Slav Macedonians (which are indisputably in their majority non-Bulgarian these days) a very pro-slavic Macedonian researcher (also peddling the same lie about the name of the province) has written an article whose abstract one can see here (one has to pay for the full article):
    http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?08PLAAAA03707468

    Finally the promacedonia website is run by activist Bulgarian Macedonians of the diaspora (they also exist). They are honest enough to include Greek sources such as Vakalopoulos but they too have an agenda and their own irredentist dreams.

  255. Maybe this information about the rise of a pseudomacedonian neo-nazism (which is very well served by Hoare) should be brought to the attention of the EU and the US government. I see there is enough data and there are enough reasons to isolate and discredit Hoare and to impose sanctions on Gruevsky’s regime.

  256. Hello everybody…

    @ξεψαγμένος
    Thanks again for the (as always) informative comment.
    Nobody should deny -of course- that the increase in propaganda activity that you mentioned could have been one of the reasons (or even the main reason) for changing the ministry’s name in 1988. However, it is now very clear to anyone who is not biased that this was a defensive move resulting from fear; definitely NOT an aggressive move, still less a premeditated attempt to «provoke» (as Hoare had alleged in his post). The difference between fear and aggressive provocation is hardly in need of explanation, just like the blatant lie that «there was no Greek province called Macedonia», etc.

    @Heretic
    I’m afraid that -again- demonising Gruevski’s ultra-nationalist government (or Archaeo-macedonism itself )as a form of «neo-nazism» is a VERY SERIOUS MISTAKE and a gross inaccuracy that will probably act like a boomerang-effect discrediting Greek positions. It’s also NOT realistic; just take a look at so many countries and what THEY believe, even inside the EU.
    Meanwhile, European support for the Greek side’s rational and moderate new positions, by certain EU countries, has apparently been slandered by Dr. Hoare, who does not see anything valid on the Greek side, nor anything honest on behalf of any country supporting Greek moderate views. The proposal for a composite name itself is regarded by him as extremist and a priori invalid, which is clearly wrong, I think.
    As regards Hoare’s credibility, I think it’s enough to prove his serious errors, leaving readers with certainties rather than doubts because of extreme name-calling..

    Moreover, I think Greek nationalism is ALSO a serious hindrance for solving the problem. Even the naive «patriotic» annual celebrations in Northern Greece of events like the Greek Army’s takeover of Kilkis (a city which was 80% Bulgarian in 1913 and was called Koukoush)
    http://echedoros-i.blogspot.com/2009/03/big-military-parade-in-greece-in-1914.html
    …SHOULD STOP because they contribute nothing but PROBLEMS for the Greek side: Today it is impossible to hide under the carpet the horrible historical reality: –That city was completely burned and EVERY inhabitant was killed by the Greeks, even children and old-age people, in 1913; nearly all the women were also raped by the Greek soldiers (and often tortured) before being slaughtered. This is a PROVED FACT and it is also ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO FEEL PROUD OF, for the Greek side. The victorious Greek army at the time burned nearly all the Bulgarian villages and towns on its way; SUPPOSEDLY after «provocations» by the Bulgarians (used as a pretext by the King’s official orders for mass extermination); however, the only reason these villages were burned was because the Greek army was victorious; the specific incidents of similar war-crimes committed by the Bulgarians and invoked by the King’s order for «reprisals’, actually took place AFTER the Greek army started burning Bulgarian villages (a proved fact in the «Carnegie Report» – which I didn’t know till… yesterday).

    Evading such facts actually worsens Greek credibility, since the burning of Kilkis is misrepresented by irredentist «Macedonians» as a «genocide of Macedonians». By evading and denying the REAL massacre, Greece effectively worsens the false claims of a «Macedonian genocide».
    Irredentist propaganda mis-presenting the burning of Koukoush / Kilkis as the burning of a «Macedonian city» appeared in anti-Greek blog-posts like
    http://iliden.blogspot.com/2009/06/blog-post_21.html

    As an anti-nationalist, I have to disagree with Greek policies of «patriotic celebrations» (which MUST STOP). ALL despicable war-crimes for which our ancestors were responsible MUST be recognised, just like the war-crimes of others (Bulgarians and Serbs). Greek war-crimes were mostly done against defeated Bulgarians; NOT «Macedonians». But if we persist denying them, we pay the price of irredentist propaganda by FYROM, even though the REAL victims (the Bulgarians) have since long ago FORGIVEN us just like we have forgiven THEM (ever since the seventies and the famous Zivkof – Karamanlis talks).

    The Carnegie report on the Balkan wars is a valuable source of facts and more-or-less balanced judgments about those savage times of early 20th century:
    http://www.promacedonia.org/en/carnegie/index.html

    A better source for the Carnegie report is this:
    http://www.archive.org/details/reportofinternat00inteuoft

  257. Heretic,
    Please remember that accusations against the Greek government by some of our own intellectuals (including… ourselves -hehe) are VERY SIMILAR to those of Gerovski and the «European Manifesto» (against FYROM’s government). The difference is only one of degree or severity; but the complaints are mostly similar (with the exception of those against irrational «Archaeomacedonism»).

    Strong language is IMHO unnecessary. Facts speak for themselves, and the main problem in this young country is that so far there was no visible internal OPPOSITION to its own nationalism. Well, now that this opposition has finally come out into the open, it is our turn to state our sympathy for it, when it seems valid; in order to SOLVE the dispute between our countries, if this is possible. If -however- it cannot be solved, then the Greek veto is the only form of pressure that can succeed internationally, PROVIDED it is accompanied by sane and moderate ideas (I think).

    P.S. The Greek veto is revealed to be in fact HELPFUL to the dissidents in FYROM, who speak out against their own establishment.

  258. Precisely. And, what’s more, any action on our behalf should be to point out the problems and the facts, so that our neighboring country will be made to quit all nationalist, irredentist, fascist and neo-nazi ideas. I’ve said it numerous times that nationalism is VERY harmful, not only to the neighbors of a country grasped by the violent, xenophobic (OOPS! I did it again… I used yet another word of greek origin, much to Mr. Hoare’s chagrin!), but also to the country itself, because, without criticism and opposition coming from WITHIN, there is no argumentation for and against – there’s only a MONOLOGUE. And countries where political speech is a monologue are well-known for what they end up doing…

  259. OK, now…
    A point of information and some news I find… amusing:
    A few months ago, a new kind of national PARANOIA swept over the headlines of many FYROM newspapers, about…

    A (so-called) «Greece, Bulgaria in Anti-Macedonian Plot»
    -See the most recent links collected as:
    http://delicious.com/omadeon/bulgaria+FYROM

    This so-called «plot» (conspiracy) between Bulgaria and Greece, to destroy their national identity is simply the result of Bulgarian State archives from the cold war years 1950 – 1967, recently de-classified and made public; studied by Greek (as well as Bulgarian) researchers…

    Hidden truths arising from these (previously) secret documents are NOT pleasant for «Macedonian» nationalism; e.g. the attempt to MANUFACTURE a «Macedonian national consciousness» was explicitly mentioned and recognised by the Bulgarian leader Zhivkov himself and others, in those documents.

    My close friend KnowDame and I have been cooperating closely, reading those documents (and other relevant material) very carefully; we have not finished yet.

    From all these sources and many others, I have concluded that «Macedonian» national identity was indeed manufactured, for two very simple, explicit reasons (ever since the beginning of the 20th century):
    1) Because the original Bulgarian revolutionary activists feared domination by the State of Bulgaria and wanted freedom to create their own state with new principles.
    2) Because these same activists KNEW that it would be impossible to create a 100% Bulgarian state in the geographic region of Macedonia; so their strategy was to «unite the people» (of all ethnicities) into one new State where they hoped Bulgarians would be the leading ethnicity while others would cooperate in a multicultural society…
    (There was also a 3rd reason, later on: Tito’s Expansionist plan to take over Greek Macedonia in future, if circumstance would allow it; combined with his explicit plan to absorb Bulgarian Macedonia, too..)

    The 2 first goals initially appeared in the declarations of 1902, preceding the famous Ilinden uprising of 1903; but they also re-emerged later on, thanks to Tito for the 3rd reason (above); all these are CONFIRMED by the de-classified secret documents…
    NOTE: The :controversy» between Bulgarian and Slav Macedonian historians about Ilinden is also important. See the short note in:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilinden-Preobrazhenie_Uprising#Controversy

    Controversy

    There have been a long going disputes between parties in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia about the ethnic affiliation of the insurgents. The opinion of most Macedonian historians and politicians is that Preobrazsenie uprising was a Bulgarian uprising, not related with the Ilinden one, which was organized by Macedonians.[24] Nevertheless part of Macedonian historical scholarship and political elite reluctantly acknowledged the Bulgarian ethnic character of the insurgents.[25][26][27] The Bulgarian view is that at that time the Macedonian and Thracian Bulgarians predominated in all regions of the uprisings and that Macedonian ethnicity did still not exist.[28] It has also to be pointed that some attempts from Bulgarian officials for joint actions and celebration of the Ilinden uprising were rejected from Macedonian side as unacceptable.

    As regards other issues, e.g. the well-known demands for the return to Greece of Civil War political refugees, remarkable new facts have come to light, such as the brutal treatment (by the authorities of the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) of Greek civil war refugees who visited the Greek Embassy to renounce their «Macedonian» identity, pleading to go back as Greek citizens. These people were unpleasantly inconsistent with TIto’s policy of presenting ALL refugees from Greece as «Aeghean Macedonians», etc.
    Moreover, legal experts in Tito’s republic had warned the authorities in documents (I have read personally) that Yugoslavia was in no position to demand favours that weren’t granted by Yugoslavia itself, to OTHER refugees…

    (we’ll come back on all this…)

  260. P.S.
    Although Bulgaria has recognised the constitutional name of the «Republic of Macedonia», this is NOT so as regards the NATIONAL IDENTITY of «Macedonians»: They were always regarded by Bulgaria as ethnically Bulgarian.

    See also the material quoted in THIS comment:
    https://omadeon.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/dr-hoares-balkan-excesses-need-anti-nationalist-critics/#comment-27453
    …where initially my main concern was NOT the issue of identity but the problem of… TOLERANCE!🙂

    To any unbiased researcher, it should be fairly obvious that Slavic Macedonians are closely related to Bulgarians, to such an extent that they are even closer to Bulgarians than e.g. Greek Cretans or… Zakynthians or (even) Kytherians are related to mainland Greeks. In fact, historically it is well known that Bulgaria’s strategy in the late nineteenth century was to help the creation of a new state which would be predominantly Bulgarian, in geographic Macedonia; INSPIRED -as a matter of fact- by the creation of the short-lived new state of… CRETE, around the same time. Indeed, Crete became an independent State but with the Greek population dominant and also an international intervention to preserve its autonomy from Greece, at the time…

    As regards, now, the Slav Macedonian language, attempts were made by Tito’s officials to consciously change this original (Bulgarian-like) dialect, by infusing it with Serbian words and some artificial new grammar rules, to present it as a «new language»; the ensuing conflict between Tito’s school teachers and local Bulgarian school teachers in the Bulgarian part of geographic Macedonia is WELL documented, in those de-classified documents….

    On the whole, today’s FYROM should stop denying its close kinship with Bulgaria; this kind of self-denial is similar to e.g. the possibility of Greek Cypriots saying they are a different ethnicity than the mainland Greeks, i.e. BULLSHIT (sorry to say this). THIS is what I meant by «self-denial»; the Archaeomacedonian bullshit is only the sugar coating of this kind of national self-poisoning

    Well-documented, in the newly revealled «secret documents», are also many repressive actions (including imprisonment and torture) done against citizens of the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia who insisted to think of themselves as Bulgarians, in the period after World War II. This repression also caused Zhivkov to protest strongly, sometimes; although at other times -of course- he colluded with Tito, because of various common interests, putting their strong differences aside (or «leaving these issues to historians» – as it was said).

    I do NOT see why today’s Slav Macedonians should not feel VERY PROUD of their own TRUE heritage; they have been UNFAIRLY treated in the past, by nearly EVERYONE ELSE; especially Greeks! They have fought «bravely» (and also made the usual… occasional war-crimes, too,🙂 albeit to a lesser extent because they were always the losers). It’s about time they become the WINNERS: ACCEPTING THEIR TRUE IDENTITY is the FIRST step towards REAL emancipation, European membership and general prosperity. We should stand by THEIR SIDE, although we should not encourage their paranoia and their mass-delusions…

    P.S.2
    Greek-speaking readers seeking an ALTERNATIVE view of the Ilinden uprising (i.e. NOT the official «Macedonian» one) can take a look at THIS:
    http://klearchosguidetothegalaxy.blogspot.com/2008/07/blog-post_21.html (by Mr. Klearchos Kapoutsis, a Greek blogger who lives in Wrocław, Poland)
    …While the official «Macedonian» view about this is e.g. THIS (in Greek):
    http://iliden.blogspot.com/2009/04/blog-post_5182.html

    Finally, the Bulgarian-Greek «Conspiracy(!) against Macedonia» is in Greek here:
    http://www.maknews.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=207:q—-q—–&catid=31:ellada&Itemid=60
    While the official «Macedonian» view about this is THIS (in Greek):
    http://iliden.blogspot.com/2009/04/blog-post_5701.html

  261. My anti-nationalist viewpoint is VERY SIMPLE:

    -Today SOME Greek people (not the majority but a lot of of them) are questioning, more and more, the solid «essence» of Greek nationalism; doubting many things; e.g. investigating the other ethnic constituent groups of the Greek nation-state, and so on…
    I think ALL nations should go through this self-questioning more and more; NOT to become subservient to… global capitalism, but to become MORE aware and MORE independent, in their minds and policies as well as democratic self-organisation.

    Well, in this respect, quite frankly I do NOT see why our specific neighbours in FYROM who recently became independent, should be excluded (or spared) from this awareness-expanding national self-doubt and trans-national emancipation…

    If we… open-minded Greeks e.g. are NOT feeling at all any discomfort, when realizing e.g. that the ancestors of Arvanites were indeed Albanians who came to Greece and became Christians many centuries ago…
    …I do NOT see why open-minded Slav-Macedonians should feel ANY discomfort either, to accept their own (EVEN MORE recent) Bulgarian and/or Slavic origin.

    There is NO REASON whatsoever, I think, for modern Greece to feel «pride», for the Balkan wars, or -even- for the «Macedonian struggle» (with all its Horrific details…)
    These wars and struggles took place at a PRIMITIVE and SAVAGE historical phase (alas recently… resurrected in its HORROR during the 1990’s war in Bosnia)…
    …but we must BE CAREFUL to AVOID this kind of savagery in the future through an Honest re-examination (NOT «revisionism» -as a LIE) of ALL our particular historical past… misdeeds.

    A REALISTIC and non-nationalist new patriotism in FYROM is indeed possible; and a «composite name» can be a NATURAL result of moderates and non-nationalists reaching an agreement and a common understanding (with Greece AND Bulgaria AND the Albanians, etc.) that offends nobody. After all, I am NOT interested (as I said) in… preventing our neighbours up North from THINKING of themselves as «Macedonian»; they ALSO have every right to think of this, since they’ve been living in (geographic) Macedonia for centuries. ALL we hope for, however, is for the rights of Greek Macedonians to be respected, too…. (so that Nationalism does NOT worsen, following… Murphy’s Law)!🙂

    MURPHY’s LAW for… Balkan Nationalism:
    -In the Balkans, ANY nationalism that CAN worsen, WILL worsen!

    Anti-nationalism USUALLY (but NOT always) deals with each anti-nationalist person’s OWN country and its own nationalism. I have always done this and denounced Greek nationalism MANY TIMES.
    However, in THIS particular case I feel very concerned about… ANOTHER new nationalism:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_nationalism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia

    United Macedonia (Macedonian: Обединета Македонија, Obedineta Makedonija) is an irredentist concept among ethnic Macedonians that aims to unify the transnational region of Macedonia in southeastern Europe, which they claim as their homeland, and which they assert was wrongfully divided under the Treaty of Bucharest in 1913, into a single state under Slavic domination with the Greek city of Thessaloniki (Solun in the Slavic languages) as its capital.[1]…

    And here are the NEW LIES:

    In Bulgaria, there are officially, 5,071 ethnic Macedonians, whereas Macedonian nationalists claim 200,000 [5]). In Greece, there is a Slavic-speaking minority with various self-identifications (Macedonian, Greek, Bulgarian), estimated by Ethnologue, and the Greek Helsinki Monitor as being between 100,000-200,000 (according to the Greek Helsinki Monitor only an estimated 10,000-30,000 have an ethnic Macedonian national identity [6]). Macedonian nationalists have claimed that there is a Macedonian minority numbering up to 800,000...

    BTW, THIS is the PROPER (Slav-)Macedonian national symbol or flag:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macedonianethnicflag3.png%5D
    (I have NO problems with THIS; but it depicts the… Bulgarian Lion – Q.E.D.🙂 )

  262. «In Greece, there is a Slavic-speaking minority with various self-identifications (Macedonian, Greek, Bulgarian)»

    Ah yes, the vast numbers of Bulgarians (and Macedonians really) among them…*shakes head*

  263. Hi Yep,
    Well, unless it’s a misquote (which is unlikely; having seen it elsewhere)…
    The 10,000-30,000 ethnic Macedonian identity figure estimated by Helsinki Monitor can’t be all that wrong. 30000 is maximum in this case; and even if the whole 100-200 thousand people were persuaded somehow to re-identify, they’d still be a small minority. Small in the sense of it being impossible to claim that their «country is occupied»… (with 2 million Macedonians of Greek ethnic self-designation)

    Clearly Greece tries to reduce the figures and the other side tries to increase them, but this is not the point.
    _________
    I am thinking of starting a new blog exclusively devoted to the worst of the worst Balkan… nationalist youtube videos, with readers’ polls to vote for the… worst video, in each category;🙂 separate categories of nationalist videos should be used, from FYROM, Greece, Albania, Serbia and Turkey, in separate polls, so that people e.g. vote for the worst Greek video, not comparing it with those from other countries. This can minimize national bias.

    Here is an extremely irredentist nationalist video from FYROM:
    (title: «Fight for Macedonia UNITED MACEDONIA»)

  264. Here is an extremely irredentist nationalist video from FYROM

    Here are 350 videos from Greece, explaining that Macedonia (as in: the historical region) is greek:
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%CE%B7+%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1+%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B9+%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE&search_type=&aq=f

    Here are 19 more, about the greek DNA:
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C+DNA&search_type=&aq=f

    And all it took was a couple of videos from Macedonians, for _every_ greek (well, except me) to revert automatically to ultra-defensive mode.

    16, with the term «gypsy-skopjans»:
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%CE%B3%CF%85%CF%86%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%AF&search_type=&aq=f

    This was actually a pop video-clip, now used by proponents of the prophecy (that the Russians will crash the turks and give us back Constantinople):

    This guy was a President of the Republic (head of state). This is the letter he sent to our largest daily newspaper, explaining why it is of utmost importance never EVER to revert a village’s name to its original (non-greek) form, even if the villagers want to:
    http://www.sartzetakis.gr/points/paidia1005.html

    You are basically comparing a teaspoon to the Pacific Ocean.

  265. What happened froggie? Did you estimate that enough time has passed from when you lied through your teeth about 1989 that you can show up and peddle some more half-truths?

    By the same token:

    748 results for Macedonia is not Greek
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Macedonia+is+not+Greek&search_type=&aq=f
    60 results for Macedonian DNA (mixed – most anti-Greek)
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=macedonian+DNA&search_type=&aq=f
    24 results about sub saharan Greeks
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sub%20saharan%20Greeks&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1
    and so on.
    Your method of measuring stupidity is what is stupid.

    Regarding Sartzetakis if you remember the right was calling him agalitsas at the time (a reference to a popular baby toy). Beyond the animosity at the way Karamanlis (Sr) was ousted by Andreas it was his pompous character seen in the very silly letter above that clinched the deal. But beyond his stupid reason for refusing the village’s will (highly undemocratic) you should keep in mind that the whole Macedonian story is very personal to him – after all for the other side he is but a «Grkoman», given his mother’s ancestry.

    So let’s make this comparison specific. Find me a song equivalent in its lyrics in nationalistic stupidity to Grci Katili sung by a known singer in Greece that actually made it to the market without wide condemnation by the public (and not just the intelligencia). Then find me a video equivalent to «Macedonian prayer» that Karamanlis’s government paid for to be shown on Greek TV. Find me a huge demonstration in Athens endorsed by the governing party where the central image was a huge banner with a map of Greece plus parts of neighboring nations with a title saying «united Greece» smack in the middle.

  266. @Ξεψαγμένος
    @j95
    Actually…
    another important thing is that an explicitly irredentist video, with irredentist maps, aggressive images, and war-mongering messages, etc….
    …is FAR MORE SERIOUS than other types of «benign» videos of relatively mild nationalism. E.g. videos «proving» that Macedonia is Greek, or that F.Y.R.Macedonia has a right to be called by its constitutional name, etc. ….are NOTHING compared to what I said.

    Even… 100 «mild nationalist videos», do NOT add up to ONE war-mongering irredentist one. Or not?
    ___
    P.S.
    And of course… the irredentist HATRED is what should alarm us, possibly leading to UNPREDICTABLE but VERY unpleasant situations in the future, INCLUDING psychological poisoning and bad human relations. I am NOT saying, in other words, that there is ANY serious «military threat» for any country, even if fanatics on one country openly threaten to invade the other…

    I am saying that (once again) Black Swan situations of the future should be AVOIDED, It’s quite feasible, if we TRY…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
    (and of course we can NEVER avoid them altogether; however we can make it less likely that they ARISE in the first place, as well as learn how to mitigate their effects, if they DO happen. The «name dispute» I.M.H.O. is ALREADY a type of «Black Swan» event… where EVEN IF Greece accepts the constitutional name of FYROM, negative side-effects WILL intensify…)

  267. Actually, it’s not THAT much of a Black Swan. Let’s look at this whole issue from a strictly industrial standpoint. Those familiar with blues, rock, jazz and heavy metal are certainly familiar with an American guitar manufacturer going by the name of Gibson. Originally founded in 1890 by Orville Gibson in Kalamazoo, Michigan, it was at some point in the late ’60s bought by a conglomerate named Norlin (like its main competitor in the blues, country and rock’n’roll market, Fender, was also bought, around that time, by CBS). Between 1974 and 1984, Gibson production shifted from Kalamazoo to Nashville, Tennessee.

    Former Gibson employees founded another guitar company, making guitars similar to those of Gibson in Gibson’s former factory in Kalamazoo. Of course, despite the similarities between the two companies’ guitars architectures, electrics and shapes (jazz archtops, semi-hollow guitars, solid bodies, all with glued-in necks and humbucking pickups or P90 single-coils), the company now based in Kalamazoo doesn’t put the «Gibson» moniker on its products. Instead, its brandname is «Heritage» and its company name is Heritage Guitars.

    And, naturally, none of its guitars bears names such as «Les Paul», «SG», «ES-335», «ES-175», «ES-345», «Explorer» or «Flying V».

    And this, although Heritage now OWNS the former Gibson factory in its entirety, although it was formed by people who spent most of their lives making Gibsons, although the Gibson DNA is ingrained in its products.

    Why don’t they?

    Well, they own the premises. They were Gibson people, the «Gibson race» or «Gibson nation» (because there are even rivalries between different «guitar nations», incited by the marketing bullshitters). But the Gibson culture (i.e. designs, patents and whatnot) is owned by the Gibson Guitar Corporation.

    Now, let us take our friend Gruevsky. His country consists – geographically – of a wee bit part of the Macedonian region (10% or so; the rest is Greek turf) and a hefty deal of Paeonian grounds. Purely from a geographical standpoint, the name «Macedonia» is not justified; actually, the mere use of this name, even in a composite name, displays latent irredentist tendencies. When you name your country after a certain piece of land, most of which belongs to a neighboring country, you ARE showing that, one day, you want to try and grab that land – and official videos, demonstrations, even schoolbooks in FYROM show just that!

    Let’s take the population part now… FYROM is divided in three parts: Slav-Macedonians (who, incidentally, can lay no claim whatsoever to any connection with ancient Macedonia), Bulgarians and Albanians. Why would the Bulgarians and the Albanians want THEIR identities suppressed in the name of Gruevsky’s nationalist/irredentist paranoia?

    Ergo, to adopt (in the name of… human rights, to boot) Gruevsky’s ridiculous propaganda is:

    1. Support of a fraudulent nationalism (and this automatically makes the «anti-nationalist» supporter of this nationalism a complete and utter IDIOT, with the IQ of a frog – perhaps even lower) that aspires to destabilize the area.

    2. Oppression of other minorities’ (actually, they’re not MERE minorities, given that they’re about 20-35% of said country’s population) human rights.

    So, while the REALISTIC option would be a composite name with the term «Macedonia» in it, as it’s what the powers that be would more easily be convinced to make Gruevsky accept, it is STILL a VERY risky choice, because the OFFICIAL policy of this state is irredentism and chauvinism against a neighboring country, whereas other neighboring countries have already put such notions aside – even countries that have very recently fought bloody wars against each other.

    If we were to really avoid trouble, for the sake of the whole region and for the sake of all people living in the Balkans, FYROM ought to be named Vardarska or Paeonia; a strictly geographical name, quite precise, which avoids the suppression of the human rights of the people comprising the country – and if the name «Paeonia» is chosen, it does bring forth some memories of a semi-illustrious ancient past and a connection to ancient Macedonia, as Paeonia’s mercenaries fought valiantly side-by-side with Macedonians and were well-regarded soldiers. The thing is, though, that FYROM’s government would NEVER accept this, because they are a bunch of irredentist chauvinists who masturbate at night dreaming of conquering (with WHAT?) Macedonia and Thessaly…

  268. Well, Heretic…
    These are all reasonable viewpoints; there is no need to fight reasonable points (unless they have errors); there is -on the contrary- a big need to fight EXTREME viewpoints and SEVERE misconceptions, poisoning the psychological atmosphere, not only between the two countries but also between people, even (and especially) in internet discussions.

    What you wrote IS reasonable; I think also quite valid, e.g. the fact that the «name issue» itself does NOT, by itself, solve the whole problem (or deeper issues)…
    However, there is no posibillity of going back to the «ideal solution», now. Greece has officially committed itself to agreements about a composite name.

    My opinion is different: There is every reason for which FYROM’s citizens should have every right to be called «Macedonian», just as Greek Macedonians. History proved this right (e.g. just look at what happened with Palestine and Palestinians), even though… if we analyze the evidence, «Macedonian» national identity was -indeed- created for very specific (and not entirely clean) political purposes, etc. (but in the remote past, as long ago as the late nineteenth century, in fact; NOT as recently as Tito’s Socialist Republic).

    The right of Slav (or Slavophone) Macedonians to call themselves what they like, can NOT -however- be used as a means to appropriate ALL other Macedonian national identities, e.g. Greek Macedonian identity. It is the FIRST TIME in History, I think, that such a thing happened:
    -the nature of this problem ELUDES proper analysis, because it IS a «Black Swan«, an event that never happened before (and so NO provision was ever made to prevent such a problem’s occurrence).

    Now, your guitar copyright example is of course correct, as regards… guitars, but not entirely correct in the realm of History and national identities, for several reasons…

    1) Ancient Macedonians did NOT make ANY significant contribution to CULTURE except jewelry and… conquests, as well as their activity of spreading around the world Greek culture, in their own time. For this reason, there is NO SUCH THING as an «Ancient Macedonian heritage». I am sorry, but there is… NOT EVEN a guitar, or something worthwhile to identify with, TODAY!🙂

    2) Identifying with Alexander as a conqueror of nations, as modern FYROMians do, is both stupid AND potentially disastrous (for themselves as well as for others). Why? Because it gives them a false fantasy of (basically) MILITARY superiority, which (although totally ludicrous) it CAN cause irredentist hatred TODAY, as well as potentially disruptive and peace-destroying tendencies (future Black Swans, too)!
    I mentioned this because… Greeks NEVER did particularly IDENTIFY with the military aspects of Ancient Macedonia; Alexander was just ONE among other ancient Greek historical personalities, remembered for some good things (and in my opinion for just as many bad things – which is beside the point now)…

    3) The BASIC national FANTASY WORLD of Greeks as well, needs to be mitigated and made more realistic. However, they can actually USE the name-dispute and the FYROMian archaeo-macedonism CREATIVELY, as a mirror of their own delusions. Having SOME of their genes (or even most of them) in common with Ancient Macedonians is TOTALLY beside the point, since CULTURE and LANGUAGE are all that matters, and since (As I said) Ancient Macedonian contribution to CULTURE and CIVILISATION was precisely..no less and no more than… ZERO, NULL, NOTHING.

    Finally, even if -for example- what you mention as an «ideal solution» , i.e.FYROM abandoning completely any official name containing «Macedonia» (100% unlikely today)… the official policies of Greece can NO LONGER cover other aspects of the dispute, while… EVEN IF what j95 wants to happen (recognition of «ROM») DOES happen, nationalist sentiments in both countries are almost certain to be INTENSIFIED. And… unless we make an effort for consciousness-raising in BOTH countries, at least for a few intelligent people, the mad nationalists will prevail, while slandering EVERYONE else as a «traitor», in BOTH countries…

  269. P.S. I forgot ONE thing:

    -Ancient (Greek) Macedonians DID contribute something VERY important, as regards culture and civilisation (apart from… spreading around in the world, the culture of OTHER Greeks):
    -THEY COMPLETELY DESTROYED DEMOCRACY.

    ****************************
    Demosthenes was RIGHT:
    Ancient Macedonians were ABSOLUTELY BARBARIAN Greeks.
    ****************************

    ΣΤΡΑΤΟΚΑΥΛΟΙ ΗΛΙΘΙΟΙ, ικανοί ΜΟΝΟ να «κατακτούν»…
    (και να ΥΠΑΚΟΥΟΥΝ – τα ΖΩΑ...)

  270. P.S.2
    So, EVERY GREEK
    identifying TODAY with ANCIENT (Greek) Macedonians
    should ALSO carry a badge saying:
    «I am VERY proud for my TOTALLY barbarian Greek ancestors. I aspire to become like them, a TOTAL militarist IDIOT, with NO culture of my own and NO respect for Democracy«.😆

    (And FYROM’s Macedonians should ALSO carry another badge saying
    «I MADE IT. I DID IT
    I SUCCEEDED to fool those IDIOTS than I am _the_ REAL ABSOLUTE IDIOT»).

  271. One asks «what’s in a name?» and, as we can see, the answer is «an AWFUL lot». I agree that there’s no way FYROM will EVER accept a name without the term «Macedonia» – they don’t even want a composite solution, which at least would show a modicum of goodwill. Alexander – and his father, Philip II – were very capable military leaders; don’t underestimate the importance of military ability, because it’s often key to a nation’s survival. Not to mention it’s a good negotiating (see: INTIMIDATING) tool, as History proves.

    Now, Alexander was a clever man: he was indeed very capable on the battlefield, but he also managed to avoid having revolts – not many conquerors do that. As explained by Machiavelli, he ventured to conquer countries used to obey a certain leader and his royal family. This means he would have to fight hard for the initial conquest, but afterwards, by choosing to let the conquered people keep their customs and laws, it was smooth sailing for his administration – and it was exactly the fact that he was intelligent enough to understand the necessity of letting the conquered people go about their everyday lives pretty much as they were used to (and, in SOME ways, improving upon their lives by providing a more civilized example) that made him so admired and loved, contrary to every other conqueror you’ll find in the History books.

    So, it is not quite valid to see Alexander as merely another warlord. He fought, yes. He fought hard. He destroyed – but, unlike the blind, wanton terror unleashed by most other warlords (like the Nazis and their Bulgarian cronies praised by the frog elsewhere), he exercised restraint even in his action’s ugly side. The destruction of the Persepolis was a highly symbolic act: it demonstrated the end of the previous dynasty and the beginning of a new status quo – and it showed, in no uncertain way, that it was entirely impossible to return to the previous status quo and that the new authority was not to be questioned.

    Same with the siege and destruction of Tyre.

    Both these atrocities (let’s face it, since war IS an atrocity in and of itself, it’s full of atrocities, big or small) were meant to provide the certainty that those conquered would NEVER attempt to retaliate. You see, as Machiavelli points out, when you conquer someone, it is unwise to cause them small grievances from which they can recover or trust corrupt noblemen who will let you in (but then will stab you in the back). The small grievances, the ones from which the conquered can recover, are remembered with anger and hate – and the conquered will revolt and overthrow you. The huge ones, though, are remembered with fear.

    Also, remember the Turkish conquest of the Eastern Roman «Empire» (what was left of it). Not only was it already falling apart, its powerful factions (most notably the Church) let the Turks in. And, since it was a feudal system, with many landowners having their own armies (which could easily regroup at any time), the Sultan moved into Istanbul, because he HAD to be there. He had to be there to watch over the conquered people and because his bureaucracy consisted of appointed officers that he could replace, execute or promote as he saw fit (not to mention that these officers – pashas etc – never had the respect of the conquered people) – therefore, the conquered people needed to have a powerful figure on top of the administrative pyramid so that they could eventually turn to him if necessary (not to mention that the Sultan needed to be feared by his subjects).

    Alexander understood these principles and provided a bureaucracy that made it easy for his successors to continue running this huge state he created – and, were it not for their own petty ambitions and for the Aetolians’ bringing the Romans in, things could be a lot different today.

  272. So, in a nutshell, Alexander was much more than the militarist you present him to be (although I understand your intentions are pure). And if even Genghis Khan, who is remembered as a genocidal warlord that laid waste to Iran and Iraq, was actually tolerant towards different religions, brought meritocracy as an important aspect of his rule and made the Mongolian state a cultural force to be reckoned with (by bringing in capable scientists and their like), it’s only fair to go easier on Alexander.

    Besides, he’s one of the very few conquerors who are still appreciated by the conquered people…

  273. Then Greece should NOT complain about being conquered by the Ottomans, since in certain ways (NOT in every way) they used a variant of the «Alexander Technique» of conquering other nations….

    Come on, heretic, CAN we seriously consider ALL this (which is TRUE) that you mention…
    …as a WORTHWHILE CONTRIBUTION TO CULTURE, **TODAY**?

    It’s of NO fucking use, damn it.
    ONLY the Americans (perhaps) CAN claim to… follow it, in certain ways (NOT in every way); or the old British Empire (again ONLY in some ways)….

    I am sorry, but we live in the 21st century now, and ALL THESE THINGS have NO VALUE WHATSOEVER.

    They are PRECISELY, no less and no more than
    NULL.
    ZERO.
    NOTHING !!!
    🙂
    (unless one wishes to learn how… to become YET another succesful Imperialist Nation, in… ten easy lessons).

    Well, WHY NOT sell this «copyright» to the… CHINESE?😆
    (they need some persuasion though; they WON’T buy it; and they have ANOTHER form of imperialist wisdom: The Chinese Way).

    However, by SELLING our copyright Alexandrian Military genious to the… Chinese, we can
    1) Let them CLAIM it back from the «Macedonians» in FYROM
    2) Use it WISELY with… Chinese Wisdom!!:mrgreen:
    3) Get some EXTRA BONUS lessons too: HOW TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY (in… 24 hours)!🙂
    😆

  274. The right of Slav (or Slavophone) Macedonians to call themselves what they like, can NOT -however- be used as a means to appropriate ALL other Macedonian national identities, e.g. Greek Macedonian identity

    There are no other macedonian _national_ identities, only regional. We’re talking apples and oranges here. In fact the «appropriation» argument is one of the lamest ever conceived by the bulgarians (‘s how I call «greek macedonians»).

  275. @j95

    Alexander is one of the extremely few conquerors who were and are appreciated by those people they conquered.

    Bullshit

    I HAVE to agree. I am SORRY heretic…😆

    TOTAL bullshit
    (we need A REALLY BIG… RECYCLE BIN for History…)

    _________
    (P.S. in any case… EVEN IF it’s not bulshit, then….
    SO WHAT?)

  276. @j95
    I am sorry, but with your second comment…
    …my problem is NOT disagreement( (OR agreement)…
    but… its TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE nature
    for SOLVING anything…

    Try persuading a nutcase that he is… not Napoleon.

    Well, now, try persuading… a few million nutcases!

  277. Putting the frog’s bullcrap aside, I don’t think we need to sell any ancient military copyright to the Chinese, for the simple reason that, way before we bothered to produce something similar, a guy named Sun Tzu wrote a seminal work named «The Art Of War».

    Now, under Alexander’s rule, there was no advancement in culture – he didn’t promote anything or prevent anything, because he didn’t want a cultural clash to occur in his still-infant empire. He already had problems with his own soldiers who RIGHTLY didn’t take kindly to the proskynesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proskynesis) that he adopted from the conquered people or his deification (which I’m pretty sure he adopted in order to make respect for his rule come easier – the guy certainly wasn’t a Liakopoulos or like that moron who claims to be a… reincarnation of Zeus).

    Like I said, he was clever and managed to garner respect from those people he conquered. This is not a cultural feat, but a political one. And while today, with all the political analyses and the think tanks of the world, one might consider achieving something like that to be relatively easy (although practice shows otherwise and I’ll tell you why), back then it seemed nigh on impossible.

    So, as a politician and a warlord, he was very successful and that’s how I view him.

    Now, you mentioned the Americans and the British. Actually, these guys haven’t learnt squat from people like Alexander or Genghis Khan. There’s no contest – and here’s the answer to the «I’ll tell you why» part I told you earlier.

    Alexander wasn’t brought in through the backdoor by anyone (like the Aetolians brought the Romans in Greece, like the Spartans brought the Persians in Greece during the Peloponnesian War, like the Church brought the Turks in, like Israel often acts like the long-reaching arm of the US – when it doesn’t go in maverick terrorist mode) in the regions he conquered.

    Now, why is this important? When you’re «invited» in an area by someone who has a problem with his neighbors, you become hated by everyone else. The US are considered (rightly, for the most part) to be blatantly and indiscriminately supporting Israel AGAINST its neighbors, regardless of who’s right or who’s wrong in each specific case. Furthermore, instigating coup d’etats all over the place (something the US do all the time, like the Persians, the Athenians and the Spartans did, but completely unlike Alexander who at least went on his own and didn’t subscribe to such back-handed tactics) is a recipe for bloodshed and regression in all aspects of political, social, economic AND cultural life. And personally I respect someone who has the guts to go and confront someone by himself and not by proxy.

  278. @Heretic, you said…

    Putting the frog’s bullcrap aside, I don’t think we need to sell any ancient military copyright to the Chinese, for the simple reason that, way before we bothered to produce something similar, a guy named Sun Tzu wrote a seminal work named “The Art Of War”.

    Well, putting aside the fact that… ancient people conquered by Alexander are NOT ALIVE today, to TELL us their opinion, in a fair… opinion poll (which shows how USELESS it is to use the argument that «they liked being conquered»….)…

    I am WELL aware of Chinese copyrights and Sun Tzu. I also have this book (though read parts of it). I’ve read the Tao Teh Ching though, about… five times, in different editions, so I -again- conclude that the «genious» of Alexander is OF NO USE TODAY, nor an important Ancient copyright. Perhaps he ought to have travelled to China first. Then he might have been EVEN MORE succesful.

    WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE CARE about it, today?

    Why do you NEED TO THINK SO MUCH about Alexander?

    Can you mention ONE SINGLE THING he contributed to culture TODAY? (apart from… contributions to military academies)?

  279. P.S.
    Well, I AGAIN remind you of ONE thing Alexander did:
    He completely DESTROYED ATHENIAN DEMOCRACY.

    (just in case you begin thinking that «he changed the world» in positive ways and IRRELEVANT things like thatHOW DO WE know he REALLY did? How do we know the world would be a BETTER place if -insteadAthenian democracy SURVIVED?)

    We Greeks treat our history POSSESSIVELY, as if it was a kind of «family jewel» whose copyrights we should protect.
    Well, this is WRONG; and unless we REALIZE how wrong it is, we will never persuade anyone else NOT to do it, either…

  280. «WHY THE HELL SHOULD WE CARE»

    Let’s be pragmatic, Omadeon: To maintain peace in a country, you need to NOT mess things up so that one group of people will be placed AGAINST the others.

    THIS is Alexander’s achievement. He managed to NOT put the various peoples he conquered against each other. Can Tito claim that? Nope. Can OUR prime minister say that? Not at all. This is what modern leaders should learn from Alexander. True, he did not promote the arts – neither did he block them. He was not a scientist. Then again, show me a politician who IS a scientific pioneer, other than Benjamin Franklin.

    In other words, Alexander managed to achieve what very few politicians have ever achieved: to NOT FUCK THEIR SOCIETIES UP. Most fuck them up beyond recognition. See G.W. Bush; Margaret Thatcher; Richard Nixon – and sooooo many others…

  281. OK,
    AGREED.:mrgreen:

    We WRITE UP a «user’s manual»,
    on HOW to MANAGE conquered NATIONS
    …while COMPLETELY DESTROYING DEMOCRACIES.

    DO we REALLY WANT THAT?😆

    (I do NOT. I’d vote for DEMOSTHENES, instead… hehe)

  282. And as for the Athenian democracy, it had a VERY ugly side that should never be ignored…

    The junta ALSO said that… in 1967.

    UPDATE:
    SO did… Plevris in his huge new book AGAINST Athenian Democracy!

    This is ALL BULLSHIT, heretic.

    And EXTREMELY DANGEROUS bullshit in fact.

    There are ALREADY Greek fascists who identify with THIS aspect of his «contribution» to the world, to DESTROY democracy.

    Can’t you see he is a HOT PANCAKE full of shit?

  283. It’s about how to manage societies with different groups of people without making them tear each other to shreds.

    VERY WELL. We make a DEAL then. with FYROM:
    – We write up a THESIS and a User’s Manual and we retain all the copyrights. THEN we can leave them…. do their marches in Ancient Uniform
    http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2009/08/03/sugklonistikes-fotografies-skopianon-mathiton-ilinden/
    …while we have a GOOD LAUGH (and collect the MONEY).😆

    P.S. We can DO it ANYWAY; ANY user’s manual WRITTEN TODAY, already HAS a copyright!🙂
    (no matter HOW related to the «Wisdom of Alexander»…)

  284. I’ll get back to you on what happened with the Athenian democracy under Alexander – I want to study it a bit more. The ugly side about the Athenian democracy, though, is not the one implied by the junta – i.e. the fact that it let the people decide – , but the fact that, for Athens to thrive, the «allies» (my ASS) were horrendously oppressed.

  285. Heretic,
    there are a MILLION TIMES hotter issues than THIS.

    Besides, this is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.

    I am only saying one thing:
    Alexander and the Ancient Macedonians are TOTALLY USELESS
    as a contribution to CULTURE today.

    Their value is:
    NULL.
    ZERO.

    Not only that, they have become DANGEROUS for disrupting Peace and Democracy TODAY.

    P.S. Demosthenes, O.T.O.H. remains RELEVANT.

  286. No objection to the fact that Alexander IS overrated – and highly overrated, at that. In all fairness, though, he didn’t screw things up more than they already were. This is no mean feat. So, this is something I have to recognize.

    As for the fact that today his name and legacy have become a hotly disputed issue, I’m sure it’s someone else’s fault.

    P.S. Another point of view, equally interesting to yours, is that Demosthenes was a hardline chauvinist, dreaming of a reestablishment of the Athenian Imperialism. Food for thought.

  287. As for the fact that today his name and legacy have become a hotly disputed issue, I’m sure it’s someone else’s fault.

    NO. It IS our fault.
    Firstly, in order to persuade ignorant Bulgarian peasants that they were of «Greek Macedonian ancestry» in the 19th century, our OWN (nineteenth century-) ancestors started a sinister propaganda to persuade these people (in THEIR language) that their ancestor was Alexander.
    (e.g. a pamphlet dedicated to «Golem Alexandr», etc).

    Bulgarians ALSO did the same but… even worse, later on: They LIED to these people, telling them that Alexander was a… Bulgarian,🙂 etc. But I do think we started FIRST («we» = our great…. great… grandfathers).

    It is ALSO our fault that EVEN NOW we fail to give up our unreasonable EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT to the non-existent Ancient Culture of a Completely USELESS tribe of Greeks in antiquity, whose ONLY value is what OTHER Greeks taught them (or what Alexander did for a VERY SHORT period of time – after which his Empire CRUMBLED…)

    Anyway…
    Heretic,
    Whatever ELSE Demosthenes did (or supported)
    his great speeches REMAIN, as VALID contributions to
    TODAY’S HUMAN CULTURE.
    Just like Sun Tzu and his book «the Art of War»….

    Moreover,
    the MYTH that people conquered by Alexander «liked being conquered» can be proved WRONG. True enough, COMPARED to other conquerors in his time, he was preferred by many of them, since he was not THAT ruthless,. and for other reasons (irrelevant here)…

    HOWEVER, some OTHER Greeks (whom Alexander had also conquered) were… rubbing their hands when he went on an expedition to Asia, saying between themselves…
    «Thank the Gods he’s gone out there; AT LAST the asshole might DIE and we will be freed of his tyranny…»
    (or something like that). Dennis (who FIRST reminded me of this fact) is looking for original sources to verify it… and get the EXACT wording.

    As a matter of fact, you are right:
    Alexander _is_ overrated;
    but not only is he «overrated», he is TOTALLY USELESS
    (to identify with) and HARMFUL to invoke today.

    I did NOT say Alexander had no value IN HIS TIME.
    I am saying Ancient Macedonians contributed NOTHNG or (ok🙂 )… VERY LITTLE (almost NOTHING) to Human CULTURE (except what OTHER Greeks taught them), and I am also saying they DESTROYED something they didn’t share or understand -Direct Democracy, in Athens (with ALL its faults) and also that there is a VERY SINISTER REASON for «overrating Alexander» today:

    People like… Plevris invoke Alexander,
    to justify their resentment for… democracy TODAY !

  288. P.S.
    The ABSOLUTELY TOTAL uselessness of Alexander and Ancient Macedonians, was also WELL KNOWN and… widely recognised by many… Greek scholars (of the nineteenth Century) who… TENDED to see him in SUCH a negative light, that… Lithoksoou has written an article full of such references in FYROM’s newspaper «Nova Makedonia»: http://lithoksou.net/arheimakedhones.html

    (The fact that Lithoksoou DISTORTED some facts, presenting ALL these Greek scholars as IF they thought of Alexander as «non-Greek», is IRRELEVANT here; as regards the quotations, he is mostly right, I think – although I have only checked out a few of them. ALL the information I checked out suggests that certain Greek scholars in the nineteenth century, long before the Macedonian wars, thought of Alexander in an EXTREMELY negative way; as he DESERVED).

  289. P.S.2
    (Alexander’s value…)

    It’s about how to manage societies with different groups of people without making them tear each other to shreds.

    Then he must have been… working for Mr. Soros
    while advocating… Multiculturalism ™ in his own time….
    😆

    (but… at the EXPENSE of Democracy – of course…)

  290. Completely USELESS greek tribe

    The tribe was not recognised as greek. Only the royal family. I know they spoke greek, but that’s just not the way nationality works. As far as the Greeks were concerned, Macedonians were savages. And, matter-of-factly, they were.

  291. @J95
    So, if they spoke Greek,
    they BECAME Greek, even if they were not !!!

    WHO CARES? Who would give a shit about their… bloody genes?
    (except historians, and Greek or «Macedonian»… nutcases?)

    I _almost_ became English when I was a teenager; because of… thinking in English.

    Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek, acted like Greeks, and were always remembered as Greek.

    The fact that OTHER evidence exists to suggest they were a Greek tribe, seems to elude you, j95, simply because you don’t… LIKE IT (I think).🙂

    But… personally, I JUST DON’T GIVE A SHIT.

  292. Omadeon:

    You said that the fact that now Alexander and his legacy are a liability is OUR fault. Precisely. It’s not HIS fault, but OURS. And I don’t think anyone in THOSE days would bother trying to hypothesize what would happen 2000 years later.

    j95:

    Once again, froggie, you’re spewing your usual bullshit. Only people from GREEK TRIBES were allowed to participate in the Olympic Games. That the Macedonians were considered to be uncouth and unrefined is the most ridiculous argument for their «non-greekness» I’ve ever heard. Even YOU can try harder than that. In that vein, perhaps we should consider the barry boys from Mpournazi, with the riced-up and heavily molested (see «improved») cars to be non-Greeks… I know I’d be glad to deem them non-Greeks, but that’s not how it works. Next time, try to turn your brains on. But I forgot: Your skull is solid bone, with no cavity for the installation of a brain.

  293. Heretic,
    tsk, tsk, tsk…..

    NOT insults, NOT again…🙂

    FORGET Ancient Macedonians…

    Do you REALLY want to… wear that badge?😆
    (it is UNJUST; besides, you’re not Macedonian, either…)

    THE NEW MACEDONIAN BADGE:
    EVERY GREEK identifying TODAY with ANCIENT (Greek) Macedonians
    should ALSO wear a badge saying:

    «I am VERY proud for my TOTALLY barbarian Greek ancestors. I aspire to become like them, a TOTAL militarist IDIOT, with NO culture of my own and NO respect for Democracy«.

    😆

    And FYROM’s «Macedonians» should ALSO carry another badge saying

    «I MADE IT. I DID IT
    I SUCCEEDED to fool these IDIOTS
    than I am _the_ REAL ABSOLUTE IDIOT
    (AND a savage)

  294. Omadeon, let’s not oversimplify things. Don’t forget that Protagoras and Democritus were from the «savage» region of Thrace and that Aristotle himself was from Macedonia – and his father, Nicomachus, was the personal physician to King Amyntas…

    So, there are some people coming from the «savage» Macedonia and Thrace that added something to culture…

    And even if they were complete and utter savages and idiots, they are useful ones; we now have the port of Thessaloniki, we have agricultural products from Macedonia and Thrace, plus many important music acts originate from there – just don’t include the «Olympians» started by Paschalis Arvanitidis (and don’t get me started on him)…